I will keep doing, but not worth it! The 2016 Presidential Primary Voting Thread

My grandfather is cheering from the grave. I feel like this whole campaign was worth it just to hear Kissinger dissed in a national democratic presidential debate.

I don't remember Kissinger coming up in previous debates, unless I missed it. Clinton seemed quite unprepared.

― clemenza, Thursday, February 11, 2016 10:36 PM (21 seconds ago)

hillary referred to herself as kissinger's favorite secretary of state or something

I think a lot of people's eyes glaze over when hrc starts verbally globetrotting but even if they're not listening closely they get this general sense of, "lady knows her shit"

(xpost) Right, now I remember--I don't think Sanders followed up. He picked his spot tonight.

My family left Chile in the wake of the coup. Kissinger's not my kind of guy either.

that was basically my reaction and im "informed" as much as a lay person can be

xxp

I thought Bernie was going to say he went to a Turkish bath

are they going to do more town halls? the vibe was so much groovier than this

as awesome as that was to hear, i think it goes without saying that anyone who cheered the kissinger diss was already voting for bernie

I hear that Cordell Hull, Cyrus Vance, and Edmund Muskie have yet to endorse anyone.

I think a lot of people's eyes glaze over when hrc starts verbally globetrotting but even if they're not listening closely they get this general sense of, "lady knows her shit"

― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Friday, February 12, 2016 3:37 AM (7 minutes ago)

haha yep

Bernie's mood is actually improving with each Hillary attack!

as awesome as that was to hear, i think it goes without saying that anyone who cheered the kissinger diss was already voting for bernie

― Karl Malone, Thursday, February 11, 2016 10:43 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think it does zero for his campaign, but it might do a little to dent Kissinger's legacy, and I also think it kind of metaphysically disrupts a certain kind of consensus you get in mainstream national politics, like he made a little ripple in the simulacra or something.

it certainly made me less grumpy!

That sanctimonious Obama stuff was Clinton at her absolute worst.

yeah, what man alive said. like it's the equivalent of wishing somebody, anybody at the national level had been willing to puncture all the reagan hagiography going on since, well, since ever but especially since his death. or like how a lot of ilx brits seemed to feel it was important, when thatcher died, not to give it a day "out of respect" or whatever. kissinger is a war criminal and is going to get away with it but at least there's some hope that his rep as "elder statesman" will someday be overturned in the c.w. the only bummer thing about sanders's response is that he stopped at cambodia.

I bet you can order a Kissinger "Not My Kind of Guy" T-shirt online already.

even with the cambodia thing, though, josh marshall's (who i feel represents a sort of typical left of center view) comment was just "Sander's has a pretty [sic] point here on Kissinger. But man, this is a serious time warp on the bombing of Cambodia"

I just saw a tweet that his campaign just released a 1000-word memo about kissinger -- bet that goes into more than Cambodia. Half of me thinks this is brilliant in a crazy sort of way -- going hard after something that no one in politics would think could be a vulnerability in 2016.

sanders on kissinger, quote edition:

"I happen to believe that Henry Kissinger was one of the most destructive secretaries of state in the modern history of this country."
"I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend. I will not take advice from Henry Kissinger."

"Well, I know journalists have asked who you do listen to on foreign policy and we have yet to know who that is," Clinton said.

"Well, it ain't Henry Kissinger, that's for sure," Sanders quipped.

so good! i hope i'm wrong about thinking that no one's gonna really care too much about Kissinger

i think its p good strategy, attacking a strength (hrc's foreign policy) and turning it into a weakness. she's deflecting it p well tho, basically treating the kissinger thing as realpolitik necessity and downplaying the iraq war vote as old news and showing where she and sanders aligned on previous issues.

http://noahscomedypalace.blogspot.com/2009/07/seinfeld-and-buddy-rich-tapes.html?m=1

interesting that sanders resists mentioning the fact he'd be the first jewish prez in the us, just a vague allusion to "somebody of my background"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCjQbTEuoDU

I love where Clinton reaches for her pen at the 30-second mark and appears to draw a circle or something. I want that piece of paper.

interesting that sanders resists mentioning the fact he'd be the first jewish prez in the us, just a vague allusion to "somebody of my background"

xp it looks like she just draws three lines. Strike throughs?

Maybe underlining something like "now's the part where I should mock him on not having foreign policy advisors"

had this feeling.. on the one hand, i pretty much agree with sanders re kissinger, what he said about history of overthrowing governments, but on the other hand, i don't exactly study foreign policy and holy cow he would get destroyed in the general election

by...?

I sort of feel like he's savvier than to launch into a rant like that while debating Cruz or Trump? I hope so anyway.

i don't even want to think about the prospect of any of those GOP guys winning

but anytime you launch into a rant cruz or trump and their $$$$ and super pacs have it on tape already to play over and over

You don't need to invoke the spectre of Kissinger when Cruz is standing across stage from you

well I don't really think talking about Cambodia is a play-on-repeat type moment, it's more just a headscratcher for the average voter.

let em, good rants > "I'm a WINNAH" to the plurality of nonidiots voting in November

xxp

what was Hil's #1 claim to progressivism tonight?

cruz will prob show up to the next debate wearing a kissinger t-shirt

I love where Clinton reaches for her pen at the 30-second mark and appears to draw a circle or something. I want that piece of paper.

http://i.imgur.com/V0ewmtR.jpg

loool

That circle was the "O" for Obama, wasn't it xxp

For much of the debate, I thought Clinton was fine, and I'm not a fan. But I just hated the way she handled the Obama charge at the end--especially the way she timed it so Sanders' response would effectively forfeit his closing statement. And if you know how innocuous his cover blurb (hardly a foreword) for the Bill Press book is, she's being incredibly disingenuous there.

I think that's Peter Boyle in Young Frankenstein!

NYT headline: Clinton Paints Sanders's Ideas as Unrealistic in Punchy Debate

feel like they queued that one up at 5pm and then went out for a night on the town

You don't need to invoke the spectre of Kissinger when Cruz is standing across stage from you

― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Thursday, February 11, 2016 11:17 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I mean, you certainly could! Cruz loves the idea of bombing people. May as well point out that the idea of bombing people as a solution to all problems has enormous consequences (such as, you kill a whole bunch of people) and just leads to more horrors. The Iraq War is obviously fresher in people's minds but no reason Sanders can't say, y'know, "as a young man, I watched three presidential administrations drop more and more bombs on Vietnam, and on Laos and Cambodia, more bombs than all the ones used in World War II, and we may have killed over a million people. What we got for it was a tragic end to the war, and a dictatorship in Cambodia, but some politicians in Washington got to pat themselves on the back for all the casualties they were inflicting with their 'carpet bombing.' Well, count me out."

xpost i mean i was thinking more about sanders talking about the US supporting the shah in iran and then about the US history of overthrowing foreign governments. what struck me at that point was, 1) i hear you, i get it. but 2) what i can imagine right now is attack ads clipping the part that is rant-y about the US overthrowing foreign governments and running that everywhere. because if the GOP took obama's words and twisted them into "he's apologizing for america" (which is garbage obvs), think of what they'll do with this material, and there's probably a massive backlog of sanders on tape saying similar. that's what i worry about.

that would work dc! I just mean that cruz is not exactly a closeted warmonger, so you don't need to point to his mentors to "out" that aspect of him

hrc may be in favor of making sand glow from time to time, but she's not boasting of it

xp

She will if she debates Cruz

Yeah, the Sanders-on-tape backlog would be a legit problem - I mean, as his fans have demonstrated, the C-SPAN archives appear to be rich with him ranting at assholes on the floor of Congress, but it'd be easy to make that look like a ker-razy liberal. Or just a ker-razy old man. He's unhinged, he's dangerous, he's foaming at the mouth!

btw my fanfic Sanders debate lines vs. ted cruz obviously need a lot of work but i would also add that when he mentions the politicians in Washington, he should throw in something about how their kids are not over there fighting, etc. etc. think that'd get some applause. just for the record.