Visiting North Korea?

I want to add my post wasnt meant to sound like "he got what he desrved" at all, just expressing shock he didnt think it'd land him in trouble.

Unless we're now meant to think he did nothing and NK are making it all up. OK. Do they do that?

i've read ppl say things like, "fuck this privileged white college kid" or "millennials are worthless fuckups." i oppose that attitude.

I just read Guy Deslisle's Pyongyang and have been reading a lot abt dprk in general and any sort of mild intrigue abt it (I guess based a lot on knowing so little abt it) has been replaced w/ a lot of sadness and terror! Like this place isn't a joke. Why do ppl think NK is like goofy and funny and maybe only mildly scary but not legitimately threatening?

Unless we're now meant to think he did nothing and NK are making it all up. OK. Do they do that?

― Interesting. No, wait, the other thing: tedious. (Trayce), Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:18 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well, considering what else this regime has done, i would hardly put it past them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4cnj4w/i_was_imprisoned_for_10_years_in_a_north_korean/

so maybe in 5 years the current regime will cease to exist

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/16/plastered-pyongyang-north-korea-launches-first-beer-festival?CMP=edit_2221

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyqUw0WYwoc

if you're misguided enough to break the list of rules you've been given and you pull down a propaganda banner, go fuck yourself. the kid is not doing fifteen years of hard labour anyways. he'll come out in a few months, a little skinnier, wearing the same blazer and write 3000 words for buzzfeed.

Otto Warmbier has severe brain injury and is unresponsive

JFC

Also it would appear the Graun has been hacked by trashy fake AV scammers?

i stand by my statement on otto warmbier. stay out of north korea.

How can you stand by it when it's clear he's come out of it a little more seriously affected than being " a little skinnier" and is not going to be "writing 3000 words for buzzfeed" any time soon?

there was no mention of weight gain in any of the reports i saw.

i feel bad for the kid and nobody deserves to slip into a coma in a north korean prison. having spent a shorter time in detention in china... like, i can still only imagine what nk-style detention for an american citizen is like. he was a fuckup but i wished him the best! he wasn't going to serve that sentence and he probably would have got out with a minimal physical trauma and a good story, worth a media tour that might have brought attention to the millions suffering in north korea.

going to tear down some propaganda banners here in dalian tonight in sympathy.

shit happens eh

there was no mention of weight gain in any of the reports i saw.

wtf

Otto Warmbier has died

imagine a world if you will

where a regular dumb ass doesn't commit crimes against a gov't

dude acted the dumbass but jesus he has paid the ultimate price for it.

also seems sort of weird that an american citizen was brutalized to death by a foreign government for an act of vandalism. if someone on fox points out how cucked this makes donald trump we could have a war on our hands.

also seems sort of weird that an american citizen was brutalized to death by a foreign government for an act of vandalism.

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, June 19, 2017 1:51 PM (four seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is not weird

as if nk doesn't have a history of draconian laws

hard labour is a common punishment within nk

well when was the last time you remember a u.s. prisoner in a foreign country dying as a result of their treatment?

the foolishness of warmbier's behavior is entirely irrelevant. people should not lose their lives for damaging property.

like, it's revolting to bring that up. it's like blaming any other victim of violence.

well, not bring that up, but focus on it, as people here did

xp

you seem to be under the impression that americans somehow deserve special treatment

xp

you seem to be under the impression that americans somehow deserve special treatment

― i n f i n i t y (∞), Monday, June 19, 2017 2:00 PM (twenty-eight seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you're either being facetious or stupid

Still standing by your previous post, dylann?

xp

you go into a country

they tell you do not do a list of things or you will be punished with the utmost severity

you do it anyway

a tragedy yes

but what do you expect

https://startrekreview.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/wesley-justice.jpg

xp how are you so certain that he did it?

i never said i was "so certain" but north korea doesn't sentence random americans who committed no crime under nk law to hard labour

look dude if you follow the rules, north korea is safe unless you are a north korean refugee or once held north (or to lesser degree south) korean passport

the way the north korean gov't treated him was still horrible and they are making an example of him because he is american, but why in the world would you risk it? would it have been so difficult to follow the rules that you are told entering a foreign country where you have no rights?

if you're interested there are pieces written by north korean scholars out there where you can get a balanced perspective

I don't think it's acceptable to visit nk as a tourist for a lot of reasons more serious than the necessary arrogance and sense of privilege. But it is staggering to hear people react to this with a "meh, should have known better".

Without meaning to put words in your mouth infinity, I can sort of see where you are coming from in the sense of going to nk not being a joke / don't treat it flippantly. In the context of being a dumb 21 year old kid though, don't you empathize at all with his actions? 100% agree with the post earlier in the thread in that it could have been me in another life.

if you're interested there are pieces written by north korean scholars out there where you can get a balanced perspective

I would definitely be interested if you have links btw

if you have victim-blaming thoughts at a bare minimum keep them to yourself

the way the north korean gov't treated him was still horrible and they are making an example of him because he is american, but

sounds like special treatment for americans tbh

totally could have been me, thought about visitng when i lived in china and i've also been blackout drunk alone there and other third world countries

yes, i was a moron

the kid was sentenced to hard labor. iirc, prisoner abuse is not the same as hard labor. hard labor does not induce anoxic brain damage. you can blame him all you like for putting himself in a position to be sentenced harshly, but nations are expected to abide by minimum standards of humanity, and this kid was obviously exposed to treatment far more harsh than his actual sentence called for.

unless it was a botched suicide, but no one's saying a word to suggest that

nations are expected to abide by minimum standards of humanity

NK cares not one bit for this though right?

jfc, we have only the fuckin' *north korean government's* word that this even happened and they didn't just decide to make an example of an innocent kid, maybe certain ppl should cool it w/ the "look dude if you follow the rules..." crap

I remember hearing nearly this same argument from both sides 20 years ago with Michael Fay. No, this dude shouldn't have been imprisoned, sentenced to hard labor, and sent home in a coma to die all for stealing a banner. It's horrible, and it's a tragedy.

But there's got to be some gray area here between "blaming the victim" and not being a dumbass in a brutally authoritarian country. Saying that a black man shot in a white neighborhood shouldn't have been there or a rape victim shouldn't have been at that party are vile positions to take because in this country, in theory, everyone is afforded the right to not be treated that way.

But this American was a guest, an outsider, with no rights afforded to him. He must have entered the country knowing his room would be bugged, his cellphone could be searched and that his passport could be taken away and held at any moment. And yet, he must've still thought he was bulletproof by pulling such a stupid stunt. You can't ignore the fact that he's the one who could have prevented this.

Also, he may have been younger than most of us, but let's not go back to calling the 21-year-old white dude "just a kid."

it's true. white dudes age in dog years.

so if the US was a more authoritarian society, those positions would be ok?

No but it's difficult to sympathize with someone who taunts a wolf

uh some of you guys are fucking crazy lol

You can't ignore the fact that he's the one who could have prevented this.

like.................................................................

But this American was a guest, an outsider, with no rights afforded to him. He must have entered the country knowing his room would be bugged, his cellphone could be searched and that his passport could be taken away and held at any moment.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/16/world/asia/otto-warmbier-north-korea-travel.html?mcubz=2

The website of Young Pioneer Tours anticipates a frequently asked question about North Korea: “How safe is it?” “Extremely safe!” the company replies, in an answer that remained on its site without qualification even after the return this week of one of its customers, Otto F. Warmbier, in a coma with what doctors described Thursday as “extensive loss of brain tissue in all regions of his brain.

...

Young Pioneer Tours is one of a handful of companies authorized to organize trips to North Korea. Its website says it is based in the Chinese city of Xi’an and run by people from several countries including Australia, Britain, China and New Zealand. It advertises “budget tours to destinations your mother wants you to stay away from,” including “the first North Korean booze cruise and beer festival.”

...

But Young Pioneer’s website presents a cheerier view of travel to North Korea than many of its competitors, describing it as “probably one of the safest places on Earth to visit.”

Unlike some competitors, it makes no mention of the United States State Department’s travel advisory that “strongly warns” Americans against traveling to North Korea because of the “serious risk of arrest and long-term detention.” Instead, the website asks: “I’m American. Is this a problem?” and answers, “Not at all!”

Adam Pitt, a British citizen who lives in Dubai and traveled with Young Pioneer to North Korea in 2013, said people on the tour drank excessively and asked inappropriate sexual questions of a female North Korean guide. The company’s co-founder, Gareth Johnson, did nothing to stop the behavior and was also drinking, he added.

Oh more rude american tourists thx 4 that

it's common sense for a country's gov't to expect a visitor to obey their laws.

I'd say it's common sense for a govt to expect that sometimes foreign visitors will break the law, especially if you're running an exceptionally repressive regime. I don't think it serves any purpose to normalise or accept this sort of brutality, pointing out that it's easy to acquiesce to tyrants isn't much of a contribution

Irrespective of what obligations individuals have in North Korea, North Korea has international obligations to a) not torture detainees and b) allow consular access.

Still standing by your previous post, dylann?

i wished him the best.

at the time i wrote the original post, no american had spent more than a year in detention in north korea, except kenneth bae. there was a pattern: american was held and an envoy was dispatched to have them returned. clinton brought back laura ling and euna lee (sentenced to 12 years, entered north korea illegally from china) and they wrote books, painting themselves as human rights heroes. jimmy carter brought back aijalon gomes (sentenced to 8 years, entered north korea illegally from china), and he wrote a book, too! and robert park, who went to the same church as gomes went over, too, and he got out after less than two months. kenneth bae stayed in the longest. but things were complicated by the situation at the time and the fact that he was openly engaged in a longterm operation to attack the government in the dprk, having set up operations in yanji in china to conduct cross border activities. but even he made it out. he thanked dennis rodman and wrote a book.

north korea has abducted and tortured foreign citizens but the majority of americans make it out okay! so... i was playing the odds.

i will say that... the majority of americans detained in north korea were hostile to the north korean government and engaged in activities intended to destabilize the north korean government. i'd encourage everyone to read about the detainees that went before warmbier. they were not innocents that stumbled into north korea and were then framed for their crimes. their treatment was disgusting and they faced trumped up charges for questionable charges--but most of them admitted to committing crimes in north korea. the other three americans detained in north korea now have a history with missionary groups (two worked for at pyongyang university of science and tech, a collaboration with a south korean non-profit group funded by american evangelical money and one had a history of missionary activities and links to evangelical groups operating out of yanji).

i don't think warmbier was an exception (except in being a clean cut white american kid and the media caring about his family crying on tv). he's part of a religious movement that has sent its people over and over again to north korea to fuck with the government there.

i think a travel ban like "the north korea travel control act" would have trouble stopping the problem, as american tourists have mostly been chill and missionaries will just cross from china illegally or sneak in with humanitarian groups, which would probably cover working at PUST.

it sounds like the u.s. state department has difficulty keeping the lines of communication open and doesn't have much credibility with the dprk. joseph yun the special rep for nk policy met with north koreans in secret to secure visits with americans detained. even if dennis rodman is the face of informal contact with north korea, it seems like there must be a number of americans doing good things in the country (lots of off-the-radar humanitarian activity), so it probably wouldn't be a good idea to try to cut the u.s. off from north korea even more. i don't think concerns over being a source of hard currency and legitimacy make sense, when the chinese and russians are in pyongyang. second, stop antagonizing china.

like dylann said, visiting NK as an american is playing the odds, doing so with the intention of being even tangentially involved in subversive activities is another, and you're always hedging against the unknowable -- you having some medical emergency, a sudden change in diplomatic relations, any number of things that would be a distant thought if you were traveling to somewhere familiar

so this was an hell of an outlier compared to what we've seen previously, but there's no indication that NK is jailing people more aggressively that we've previously seen, it's unclear why Wambier was in that condition, and the only new information is that NK's reticence to talk about people they have jailed extends to americans in comas

americans in comas

🎵i know, i know, it's really serious🎵

interesting writing post-warmbier:

"dangerous exploits: otto warmbier and the risks of travel to north korea," craig s. smith: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/22/insider/dangerous-exploits-otto-warmbier-and-the-risks-of-travel-to-north-korea.html

chinese state media on warmbier/trump's nk policy: China has made the utmost efforts to help break the stalemate in the North Korean nuclear issue. But by no means will China, nor will Chinese society permit it to, act as a "US ally" in pressuring North Korea. If Washington decides to impose third-party sanctions on several Chinese enterprises, it will lead to grave friction between China and the US over the Korean Peninsula issue. http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1052689.shtml

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21723779-travel-ban-american-citizens-north-korea-may-be-offing-outrageous-death-otto

from piie: https://piie.com/blogs/north-korea-witness-transformation/people-people-engagement-north-korea - a study of the surprising amount of people-to-people engagement in north korea / https://piie.com/blogs/north-korea-witness-transformation/warmbier-and-rodman stephan haggard on travel ban/rodman diplomacy / https://piie.com/blogs/north-korea-witness-transformation/challenges-engagement I am sympathetic with Moon Jae-in’s effort to recalibrate North-South relations. But I am also glad to see that he is standing on principle and that hastily conceived efforts such as summit celebrations in Pyongyang (link is external) were canceled rather than rushed. / https://piie.com/blogs/north-korea-witness-transformation/more-us-sanctions-how-far-should-we-go

more on sanctions, us-dprk relations: http://sinonk.com/2017/06/19/a-roundtable-review-of-van-jacksons-rival-reputations-coercion-and-credibility-in-u-s-north-korea-relations/ For Jackson, the persistent militarized rivalry that causes recurrent but contained crises on the peninsula is produced and reproduced by the choices of US officials. By backing down in successive crises, the United States invites future provocations by signaling that it is unwilling to fight a general war over small skirmishes or continued advancement of the DPRK nuclear and missile programs. At the same time, these decisions have enhanced the credibility of US threats when they are issued, which deters broader conflict. As reputation is often deployed to argue that the United States is weak, it is a refreshingly nuanced diagnosis.

nate thayer on phoenix air, contractor that flew to pick up warmbier: http://www.nate-thayer.com/did-north-korea-poison-u-s-prisoner-otto-warmbier-with-botulism/

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/stories/otto-warmbiers-release-reminder-brutality-north-korean-labor-camps/ Start with China. One of the major barriers to intervention in North Korea is China’s protection of the country. Pray God would raise up leaders in China willing to take a stand for religious freedom and human rights. Pray China would open its borders to North Korean refugees rather than sending them back.

Family declined an autopsy,

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/238505/otto-warmbiers-jewish-faith-was-kept-under-wraps-during-north-korea-detainment-scroll

Bergman, a Warmbier family spokesman, appears to have advised the family to keep his Jewish identity under wraps because it would undercut North Korea’s alibi, which involved a church, for sentencing Warmbier to 15 years of hard labor for attempting to steal a propaganda poster, the video evidence of which is grainy.