Better Call Saul

interesting my wife's sympathies are def with Jimmy, whereas I see both characters as occupying a moral gray area, closer to OL's estimation upthread. Of course I find Jimmy more likeable in a lovable scoundrel kind of way.

Mike just shrugs and is like "yeah, what you gonna do?"

I think Mike felt bad about what happened, he seems to be a decent guy under the badass exterior. If I remember right he's never hurt any innocent bystanders

Nobody in the audience wants Kim hurt, though, which is the real crux of the Jimmy/Chuck drama.

Hell, everybody on this show prob means well, to some degree, in their own estimation---we know from a flashback on BB that the pre-stroke uncle thought he was doing stuff for the kids, raising his twin nephews to avenge the family honor etc. But in the outside world, the ones outside their heads, several of them are pretty fucking dangerous. "Jimmy has a good heart, " Chuck tells Kim, seemingly sincerely (although of course, everybody here's got levels), but he (supposedly) helped ruin their father by stealing, even though he cried at the funeral, and his "twisted romantic gesture," as Chuck calls it, has helped to send Chuck on his way perhaps (not that Chuck's own mental maze and Bad Choices didn't seal the deal). And he was something of a sense-talking, partial enabler to Walt and Jesse's careers of evil. Think both shows are mostly about this kind of thing (even, among the cartoon bikers, the little bland blond guy is just doing like he's raised to do, while dreaming of Lydia the helicopter mom with a few propellors missing [stole that last bit from some recap])

Jesse loses all illusions, if he ever had 'em, about what he's doing, way before Walt/Heisenberg, who only seems to consciously reintegrate at the very end--first by admitting that he didn't do it to provide for his family, but "because I liked it," and then petting his beloved meth cooker like it's baby Holly, right before he dies (spoiler)

back to this show: Mike looks a bit sick when Nacho tells him about the Good Samaritan getting killed; I think he might be planning to atone by fucking these punks up---or maybe he gives up and goes even further to the dark side, more money for his granddaugher xpost whattayagonnado

Chuck's complete lack of nuance or human understanding extends to his dad. I mean, Jimmy would swipe a few bucks from the till back at the store, but his dad would give the same few bucks to any grifter who came through with a sob story. And the thing is, not all of them were grifters, and sometimes the cost of helping people genuinely in need is falling for the occasional grift.

It's not like anyone ever big-time swindled him, and Jimmy is never really shown swindling anyone who's poor or really in needy in flashbacks of now -- it's greedy drunks who would take a fake Rolex or hedge fund dickheads who think they're coming out ahead.

Chuck not being able to differentiate, and assuming Jimmy has some innate character flaw, is the splinter in his eye

My favorite part of this episode was Kim immediately concluding that Chuck was right about Jimmy forging the documents.

Which in turn reminded me of how Skyler never for a moment bought any of Walt's lies, even though she didn't know the truth until relatively late in the game.

Jimmy is never really shown swindling anyone who's poor or really in needy in flashbacks of now -- it's greedy drunks who would take a fake Rolex or hedge fund dickheads who think they're coming out ahead.

reminded of some bit in one of Iceberg Slim's books where he notes that every con requires a mark that's eager to rip off the con man. the con requires a greedy mark.

Which in turn reminded me of how Skyler never for a moment bought any of Walt's lies,

? I must've been watching a different show, she bought all kinds of lies in the first couple seasons.

OK, maybe some of the more innocuous early ones, but her bullshit detector started going off a lot earlier than it could've.

Good point about Dad, assuming he was really as naive as presented--is this the way Jimmy remembers the moment of insight--which might be a lot of notions, moments, ect., compressed into a personal fable. Anyway, re comparisons of Chuck and Jimmy, was Slippin' Jimmy always that discriminating in his flopper scams? Did he only rook the drivers of fancy cars? Some poor people drive those too, for a while.
I thought Chuck was a dick but less dangerous, but come to think of it, maybe he will turn out to be as much of an enabler etc of careers of evil as Saul, or more so, however unwittingly(in some cases, carefully see-no-evil in others): like what if good old Gus, that pillar of the community and captain of industry, is a client of Chuck and Howard's firm, and/or Mesa Verde, for that metter? Might even be on the latter's board of directors.

I thought Skyler Wanted To Believe---first of all in good ol' Walt, then in perfect criminal Heisenberg (shoulda caught a clue from his choice of names)

https://imgur.com/a/U0UhP

Oops I don't think that worked

https://imgur.com/a/U0UhP

decent guy

yeah ok maybe he's not so great

I'd also forgotten about his past as a corrupt cop

Jimmy is never really shown swindling anyone who's poor or really in needy in flashbacks of now -- it's greedy drunks who would take a fake Rolex or hedge fund dickheads who think they're coming out ahead.

reminded of some bit in one of Iceberg Slim's books where he notes that every con requires a mark that's eager to rip off the con man. the con requires a greedy mark.

― Οὖτις, Thursday, April 14, 2016 12:06 AM (12 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think I've seen that used as an excuse/validation for the con in a lot more places. Or put as you can't con an honest person since it's just redirecting their own force, sounds like a karate/kung fu using their force against them scenario really.

oh I'm sure Iceberg's not the only guy to use that line. but yeah it posits cons/scams as an exploitation of another's greed and therefore okay

little bit of footage from the finale:

thr.cm/29XOfw

well clearly in dont know how to paste links

I'll bet your brother sabotaged it.

Where's Ernie? We need to investigate.

At first, the way the latest episode ends with a cliffhanger made me think that Chuck doesn't die, because why else wouldn't they have just ended the ep with his death? (So I thought he'd end up as paraplegic or something.) But then I remembered the same thing happened with Breaking Bad, in the final season episode that ended with the Nazi shootout cliffhanger, with Hank still alive, which made me declare he wouldn't die... And then they killed him in the beginning of the next episode! Still, if the next ep of BCS starts with "oh, and Chuck died", I call bullshit on that. It'd be just pointless milking of suspension.

One thing I found interesting is that they left in intentionally ambiguous why Kim lied to Chuck, saying she didn't think Jimmy forged the documents. Did she do it because she didn't want Jimmy to face fraud charges and go to prison, or because she wanted to keep Mesa Verde to herself, so any proof that she knew and accepted what Jimmy had done would make it more likely for Chuck to go after her as well? The former intepretation would be more in line with her characterization as a morally upstanding person, whereas the latter would be a clear break for her. But it wouldn't be completely out-of-character, because we already she's drawn to Slippin' Jimmy's ways on some level. And she probably feels Chuck tricked her out of the Mesa Verde contract, which should've been hers... So that might've be the final straw for her, because she tried the straight and narrow approach (in the previous ep, where she didn't even call Mesa Verde before she'd left her resignation, thus allowing Harry to contact them first), and that just didn't work.

So maybe, if Kim didn't lie just to protect Jimmy but to keep the contract as well, this was her "finally giving in to the devil" moment, just like the Good Samaritan was for Mike and forging those documents was for Jimmy... Which would make her character arc parallel to the other two leads, instead of her inevitably becoming collateral damage to one of Jimmy's scams, which I thought was gonna happen before seeing the latest episode. If this ep signals a change of direction for her, it'd certainly make the next season more interesting w/r/t her character.

chuck's dead and kim lied to protect jimmy and keep mesa verde

Thanks for the info! Did you get an advance view of next week's episode or something?

nope but I watched this week's episode

Okay, interesting. The version I saw must've missed a scene where they confirmed those things, gotta send some email to Netflix Nordic about this.

In the Benelux version you see Hector shoot the good samaritan.

lol Chuck just smacked his head on the counter, he'll be fine

Chuck's gonna be flatlined and it's going to fall to his next of kin to pull the plug.

Chuck would def have wanted the plug pulled tbf

No one said Chuck will be "fine", but IMO they could still have him live as brain-damaged or paraplegic, for example. If the next ep begins with him already dead, then that cliffhanger was completely pointless and they should've made it clear in this ep that he died.

I predict that he survived but that he'll be impaired in some way.

The next biggest element of tension for me (after whatever ramifications this will have on Chuck and Jimmy) is the potential fallout from this happening at the copy place specifically. Why was Chuck there (asked from the perspective of people who don't know)? How much does Ernie know? Is the copy guy going to say anything? How is Kim going to react once she finds out, given that she knows about the forgeries and was somewhat implicit in Chuck feeling the need to go there in the first place?

Chuck going to the hospital means he's going to be thrown on antianxiety meds, at the very least, and probably going to thrash around enough to be put on psychiatric observation

xopst Tuomas the "point" of a cliffhanger is to get the viewer geared up for the next episode, not to justify itself in retrospect

Chuck's swoon looked like typical syncope (fainting), not a stroke or a seizure. He hit his head hard enough to get a concussion but that's unlikely to be fatal. The forces involved weren't enough to produce a skull fracture and epidural hematoma, or even a contusion / subdural hematoma.

Harder to sort out the neurological status in Chuck's case because even without a specific brain injury, he can be very drowsy / encephalopathic just from his usual (psychological) hypersensitivity to EMR. Would be no surprise if he doesn't wake up for awhile even if the scans and other testing are OK. But he should recover.

Whatever the lasting results re Chuck, seems like Jimmy and prob Kim (maybe depending on what Jimmy tells her about what happened) will see this as a line being crossed. Ditto Chuck, if he can still think, and ditto the poor little graveyard shift guy.

And even if Jimmy tries to minimize his own partial responsibility, think she can figure it out, though she's getting pulled further into the same gray area wandered by all these male maniacs.

the poor little graveyard shift guy.

This role was terrifically played, by the way.

he's going to go far in life

Tuomas you're way off. Chuck isn't go to die but he'll be in hospital getting tests and freaking out with all of that electricity. Should be a delight (for me anyway) to watch. Pretty sure Chuck in hospital clears a way for Jimmy to get up to Jimmy stuff somewhat uninhibitedly too.

I wouldn't be surprised if Chuck is dead. If Tuomas hates a cliffhanger well okay wouldn't be the first time he's hated on a standard narrative device.

also I have to say, it is really wonderful seeing two underrated comedy greats play such fully realized characters

I'm not much of a fan of Michael McKean generally and was kinda 'ugh' when it was announced that he'd be on the show but he's been really terrific.

from Lenny to this is a p stratospheric leap

It's Rhea I can't get enough of. In these last two episodes...I keep yelling out SOMEBODY GET HER AN EMMY.

she's been great. The absolute derisiveness to the look she gives jimmy in the car...

Totally