HBO's adaptation of Game of Thrones - Thread 2. There are a lot of nerds.

ramsey getting got is the perfect end to this season and to begin what I hope is the fucking end of the series

I know right, like I keep telling people how stupid the show is and to please let me leave the living room or change the channel and it's like they can't even hear me. I just keep watching, unable to walk away.

http://lovelace-media.imgix.net/uploads/273/1eeff950-ed5f-0133-243e-0e1b1c96d76b.jpg

Can I ask what Lady Stoneheart's function is in the books? I mean, it sounds like a cool idea but where's the necessity in it?

Remember this is extremely spoilery

I think many book readers are asking the same question.
xpost

That was a perfectly decent episode, I thought. It looked very handsome, and all the segments worked pretty well. Glad Arya's making some progress.

There's a couple of things with Lady Stoneheart. First of all, I guess it's just sorta cool? It's a surprise, and intriguing. Secondly, it prepares the reader for other things like it to happen, though book readers still don't know if it will happen... It also helps with remembering that there's still trouble in the Riverlands, the fact that Lady Stoneheart is rooming makes the readers more interested in what is happening there - and a lot is in the books, Jamie goes to the Riverlands, not Dorne, in the books, and Brienne is there as well. And lastly, it plays into the theme of transfiguration and fluent identity, which is one of the main themes of the books, imo. Almost every major character, that doesn't die, goes through an identity change, or a purification phase. Theon becomes Reek and Arya becomes No One, for instance. Jon Snow, obviously. This also plays into how ridiculous the feudal system is, based on an idea of immutable identity, which is broken left and right as the books goes along.

I tried to keep that non-spoilers, but...

I'd briefly summarize stoneheart as the personification of violent revenge as terribly persuasive, extremely confused, and (literally) not a great look. Which seems to me to tie into a lot of Martin's issues with war.

Good analysis, Frederik.

I'm assuming they're not bothering with the Riverlands given all of that, and it would probably be a mistake for the series to widen the scope even more at this stage.

I don't know what the riverlands are like but sounds cool though.

My enthusiasm tends to drop when we go to the sunny sandy places and I don't know how much that's due to the story or me just not being too fond of those settings. Probably both.

Okay, thanks, I think I get it now. Not sure if the tv-series really needs it though. Seems like a very writerly device that wouldn't necessarily translate too well into the series as we have it.

The Riverlands are where Catherine Stark, née Tully, was originally from, and it's where the war mainly took place in seasons 1-3 (the whole reason the Freys and their castle at the Twins are so significant is because they control strategic passage over one of the rivers). It's located between the North and the Crownlands with Kings Landing to the South, and to the west is the Westerlands, where the Lannisters has their gold mining empire. So it's quite often the area mainly destroyed by warfare in the kingdom. Arya also spent most of her travels in the Riverlands. The devastation of the area is also described in much more detail in book 2, I think, and it does make the whole campaign of Robb Stark more nuanced when you see the consequences for the common folk.

I've been really missing Joffrey this season.

^ Still my favorite parts of this show.

one thing bugging me is how casual and "oh yeah" everybody is about RESURRECTION, there's no way the Lannisters wouldn't have at least one full-time miracle-worker in case the king gets poisoned

Nah, Lannisters are quite anti-magic. Qyburn's science of semi-ressurection is a very new innovation.

oh boy

I actually think the resurrection stuff is some of my least favorite stuff in this show. If you need a character alive, then don't kill them. Zombie Mountain is still the Mountain, with little to no discernible change. Zombie Jon Snow is still Jon Snow, and if that's what it took to get him off the Wall, fine, but there were probably easier, less confusing, less convoluted ways. Especially since we are operating in a world with magic snow zombies already, why bother with all these one-off back-from-the-dead-ers?

I've started to enjoy watching the show try to juggle all its characters and subplots in a limited space of time/season. I think I'm also enjoying the more contemporary writing style this season has embraced, more like the first season (iirc), probably less successful at delivering us to another world but certainly fun/funny/goofy..

The Brans-splaining is a solid if hackneyed shortcut, though I've got to admit my wife is at a total loss at to what's going on. I'd been recently thinking of this show in terms of "Lord of the Rings," the movies, specifically the amount of stuff they squeeze into 11 hours of film, which is basically only one season of GoT. And yet GoT is struggling to reconcile Martin's vast convolutions of history (which are important) with telling the story, driving it forward. Tolkien's world is no less complex, but I doubt there were many moments in the films that made the armchair nerd ask "what the hell is going on?" But I can sense this show leaving behind anyone who has not done their homework, and even some who have read all the books as entertainment and not as text. As I think the AV Club review pointed out, all roads still seem to be leading to R+L=J, but the narrative machinations necessary to set that up are surprisingly complex and probably have to be revealed sooner rather than later. Which the show appears to be doing, but short a history lesson might be hard to convey.

Maybe we'll get a flashback to Jon's brain when he was dead where his ghost father will appear and tell him (us) what's going on? We're already getting pretty Star Wars-y with all the training, might as well go full force ghost.

Every time I see that green forest sprite I giggle btw.

So yeah, kind of important question that the writers are presumably gonna get round to at some point - who becomes king when Tommen inevitably gets whacked with no heir?

Margaery would be Queen, right?

After some late night visits to King Ser Pounce.

Does it work like that? Westeros isn't exactly big on women's rights.

I mean unless you have several dragons and an army of Unsullied.

Dunno really. The show seems to treat lineage as massively important and then tear it up when it suits them.

what makes you say that? can't think of much that has happened that really fits that

since consorts don't officially count in succession, the next in line to the throne after tommen baratheon is his nearest blood relative, daenerys targaryen

Just that generally, for example, there seems to be major importance placed on there still being a living Stark, when at the same time people are just murdered all the time, so who cares if there's still a living Stark. Like these claims don't seem to mean a lot in reality. Not least when it's a child. Like if the lineage was that important, surely all the people desperate for the rightful kings of the north to be in power would be the ones hunting down Rickon to put him back in the throne.

That's a fair point, that for all the importance placed on name and lineage and divine right or whatever, it's pretty easy to just take someone out and usurp their power. We've seen it a lot. Clearly it's all a lot of place holding/throne juggling while the show gets together its Grand Joseph Campbell Prophecy.

xp a big chunk of storyline has been about ppl absconding with or trying to find the stark kids. and recently we've seen the value of the stark lineage to the boltons with sansa and now rickon.

in fact, if lineage wasn't so important most of the conflict in the story wouldn't exist at all

Yeah I mean virtually any of the Stark kids would presumably be able to raise an army of loyalists without too much trouble, it's why Sansa is so important to a range of different sociopaths for one thing.

And yet, dragon people trump all. If only there was some way to unite the dragon people and Starks, hmmm ...

Of course, someone would probably just kill one of them again and start the story all over again.

xp a big chunk of storyline has been about ppl absconding with or trying to find the stark kids. and recently we've seen the value of the stark lineage to the boltons with sansa and now rickon.

I don't understand what you mean here. What is the actual value of the kids? The Boltons are in charge, it doesn't seem as if people are banging down the door in support of Rickon Stark.

Not saying you're wrong, I guess I just don't quite see your pov.

To me, lineage is feted as important but when everyone can just kill someone and seize power, how is it important? Some religious guy threw the queen in jail. Some other family murdered the eldest Stark and his mother. Robert Baratheon was murdered as well, right? As a viewer of the show the lineage doesn't seem important at all - not as important as killing your way to the top.

Weren't Dani and her shithead brother claiming themselves rightful heirs to the throne at the beginning of the show? Didn't seem to matter much.

xpost is that true? the show doesn't seem to make that clear - if that's the case why aren't people bothering to do anything about walder frey or the boltons?

Middle Earth (and the rest of the Tolkein universe and its history) is waaaaaay less complex, there are two sides and only two sides to every conflict.

GoT has to spend a lot of time on motivation, and a lot of that time on stuff that doesn't make immediate sense to people who haven't lived under feudalism.

Has anyone done a compare & contrast with Chinese & Japanese medieval epics?

I mean, if I was to defend the show I'd say it's actually been a theme that all these idiot families think their name is important but actually they're just a few murders away from being yesterday's news. Or a zombie apocalypse away.

it's not like those events you described happened and were just brushed off, most of them resulted in wars. re the stark kids the reason the boltons wanted sansa so much was because their rule is extremely tenuous and they could rally support and legitimacy around connection to the stark house - and, more importantly, prevent anyone else from doing so.

Westeros is in transition, dudes. The same line ruled the entire continent for 300 years up until a couple of decades before the first book / first episode. Everyone is confused about what lineage and nobility really means.

Lineage matters, but we're specifically seeing all of the relatively rare times that someone is daring enough to kill someone else notable. It's like if we were watching a show about street racing, of course we're going to see all of the times that people were speeding or driving in the wrong lanes or whatever. Would you ask "Does anyone even follow the rules of the road? They seem pretty easy to ignore"? We're just seeing all of the exciting events condensed for the sake of the story. And of course the GoT universe is being majorly disturbed by all these shake ups via domino effect, so that helps with the frequency of these abnormal murderous power grabs.

the frey murders ended a war though, and surely were the most heinous act against the starks.

i dunno, at the least i think the line between what murder gets you and what lineage gets you is a bit confused. i don't mean that it should be entirely clear, or that it could be, but it seems for narrative purposes sometimes it's a world in which lineage limits everything and everyone, and other times violence conquers all.

xpost fair enough evan, to a point, but the consequences of those murders don't necessarily seem consistent or build any clear picture of how lineage works in this world. it's more like i'd naturally expect a show about street racing to feature the cops in it.

I actually think the resurrection stuff is some of my least favorite stuff in this show. If you need a character alive, then don't kill them.

Worth remembering that the possibility of ressurection in this world has been shown from the end of season 1, with Khal Drogo, but since then it's been shown to come at a heavy cost. If Jon's being brought back from the dead has a fundamental impact on the character then it's worthwhile. Remains to be seen if it will, though.

Like if the lineage was that important, surely all the people desperate for the rightful kings of the north to be in power would be the ones hunting down Rickon to put him back in the throne.

Don't forget everyone thinks Bran and Rickon have been dead since the end of S2.

I feel like the wildlings should be more suspicious of resurrected Jon Snow, considering that their only other experience with people coming back from the dead is the zombies raised by the white walkers. I mean, I get that Jon Snow doesn't look like a zombie, but still, I wouldn't trust him.

The show seems to treat lineage as massively important and then tear it up when it suits them.

this is v true, but also neat description of how the actual monarchy has functioned

yeah i guess that's the realisation i was coming to when i said:

I mean, if I was to defend the show I'd say it's actually been a theme that all these idiot families think their name is important but actually they're just a few murders away from being yesterday's news. Or a zombie apocalypse away.

daenerys' story line v explicitly about this theme atm

the widow spa retreat seems weird 2 me

You can kill your way to the top but without a power-base of loyalists you're not going to stay there for very long. It's not like anyone in Winterfell is going to fight much in the name of Ramsay Bolton when they could fight for even the lamest Stark or for that matter virtually anyone else.

xpost fair enough evan, to a point, but the consequences of those murders don't necessarily seem consistent or build any clear picture of how lineage works in this world. it's more like i'd naturally expect a show about street racing to feature the cops in it.

― japanese mage (LocalGarda), Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:47 AM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

True, though I also think there's universal confusion as a result of all the transitions. This is a world where news is spread almost exclusively via carrier ravens and poor children that ease drop.

And nobody carries ID!

the widow spa retreat seems weird 2 me

it's worse than dorne imo

i like this show though!

Let's see how much they drag it out. It certainly has the potential to be a bore.