Another fucking spree shooting. Great.

Oh jeez, I forgot about that. Feel free, I stole it myself.

nice alfred.

Obama's TV address yesterday was his 15th after a mass shooting.

a good day for trump.

I don't think so. His reactions made him look exactly like the tone deaf, narcissistic idiot that he is. He's gonna close those borders and ban those Muslims to...keep out American citizens with no clear religious affiliation, apparently?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/742034549232766976

"Appreciate the congrats for being right..."

That is possibly the most narcissistic tweet ever.

forgive my pessimism here but even if we, like, suddenly tomorrow banned all gun sales wouldn't it be completely futile w/ the amount of guns that already exist in this country?

looks like a lot of press is already either denying it was a gay club, to present it as just another straightforward islamic terrorism attack, and stoke up more fear, and make it simpler to process.

bad day for everyone.

the killer sounds like just another unstable guy, like a lot of previous killing spree murderers. who knows if he really was linked to ISIS, they would love to claim it as theirs anyway.

NBC and MSNBC have been terrific. Brian Williams told the story of Pulse's owner and – this gobsmacked me – the history of the Stonewall Inn and the riots.

well i should say not all press, just a few places (i think the daily mail didnt say it was a gay club, and some sky news presenter yesterday didnt want to talk about that aspect of it either). prob good not to make a huge generalisation.

Gay club and most of the victims seem to have been Hispanic. That might cause some problems for some people.

That Sky News clip was infuriating. Good on Owen Jones for walking out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ITdjAb3VcE

I could not believe the way Owen Jones was treated on the Sky News press review - saw it live. Imagine being gay and having to sit through that anchor twat dismissing the idea of homophobic hate crime to assert that the killer hated fun, essentially. RRRRRAAAAGHHHHHHH

Londoners: come to Old Compton Street 6.30 for a 7pm vigil where LGBTI people and heteros are going to stand together and link arms etc.

wtf was that all about??!?!

wtf was that all about??!?!

― Larry 'Leg' Smith (Tom D.), Monday, June 13, 2016 9:05 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Owen, my man, if I see you in the pub tonight, I will buy you a drink.

Owen Jones explains (well, as much as you can explain the complete knuckleheadedness of the Sky anchor dude)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/13/sky-news-homophobia-orlando-sexuality

The lady in the Sky News clip: "Canada actually has more guns per person than America, but they have controls over who will have them."

Where does this idea that Canada has a higher gun ownership rate come from? The Small Arms Survey puts Canada 13th in the world. It might be from Bowling for Columbine. If so then that film may have done a big disservice by downplaying the correlation between gun ownership and gun deaths.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/small-arms-survey-countries-with-the-most-guns-1.3392204

Owen Jones explains (well, as much as you can explain the complete knuckleheadedness of the Sky anchor dude)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/13/sky-news-homophobia-orlando-sexuality

― ailsa, Monday, June 13, 2016 9:08 AM (19 minutes ago

I just had a FB argument with a former student who thinks this is an attack "on all of us" and ranted about Obama's cravenness, etc.

Just reading some nice comments from Christians on Facebook about how this terrible/praying for the families etc but, by the way, homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and/or unnatural.

I was at Barnes & Noble yesterday and overheard a guy talking to his daughter, the typical "Heard there was a shooting, these assholes want to get rid of guns, yeah right, if someone came in here right now I could drop him before he did anything, etc." Took a look and he was your typical Larry-the-Cable-Guy-on-a-Crisco-diet looking fuckface. I wanted to say, "You can't even walk from here to the cash register without getting winded, Dirty Harry."

probably this is a big enough story to have its own thread ?

incredible how people with such little experience w/ queerness seem to know so much abt how it works

I'm currently engaged in an argument on Facebook with someone who thinks it's OK because they went on to discuss Owen Jones' points regarding the targeting of the LGBT community after he walked out rather than actually engage with a member of that community while he was sitting there with them trying to make that very point.

I'm also none-too-happy with the pejorative mental health terms being thrown about in that Sky discussion, but that's for another time.

Seems to be a cretinous argument being put forward that Owen Jones wanted to emphasize it was a homophobic attack in order to deny it was an Islamist one. You see, he loves Islamism, that Owen Jones.

The entire world needs to just stop and go to Critical Thinking Camp for the summer so that we can all learn that planting our feet firmly and shouting half-remembered facts and cable news talking points at one another does not a fucking argument make.

(Not directed at anyone here, but we could surely all benefit from a brush-up.)

As a Jewish person (albeit non-practicing and non-believing), the whole "you wouldn't complain if it had been Jews instead of <x>" line of argument makes me wince -- there often seems to be the underlying hint that we don't deserve such treatment

(Apart from that, obviously I support Jones and his right to walk out, even if I wish he'd stayed to stick the knife in harder.)

xxpost, yep, seen a bit of that around, mostly from people who struggle to hold one coherent point of view and seem oblivious to the concept of multi-faceted arguments.

If this anti-Owen Jones stuff is mindblowingly annoying, I'd advise you to steer clear of James Delingpole's Twitter feed (like you don't all do that anyway - it was brought to my attention by a friend and I have been seething about his idiocy all day)

"As a Jewish person (albeit non-practicing and non-believing), the whole "you wouldn't complain if it had been Jews instead of <x>" line of argument makes me wince -- there often seems to be the underlying hint that we don't deserve such treatment"

i think he was simply saying that there is an acceptance of there being such a thing as anti semitism, whereas for many other groups, that acceptance is not there, or to a much lesser degree. not sure how you inferred that he thinks jews dont deserve such treatment.

"Gay club and most of the victims seem to have been Hispanic. That might cause some problems for some people."

victims who were both gay *AND* hispanic. i imagine trump supporters are happy someone did their dirty work for them, AND yet still allowed them to be able to hate the gunman.

the orlando killer is like a gift, he fulfills all hate-fueled needs.

i think he was simply saying that there is an acceptance of there being such a thing as anti semitism, whereas for many other groups, that acceptance is not there, or to a much lesser degree. not sure how you inferred that he thinks jews dont deserve such treatment.

I think the point is that using anti-semitism as the gold standard for bigotry can come across as implying that Jews are somehow getting special treatment, that anti-semitism is always taken seriously in a way that hatred directed at other minorities isn't, when in fact anti-semitism is downplayed and apologised for all the time?

to be fair to Jones, I think don't think that this is where he is coming from and he has been pretty outspoken in challenging the left-wing complacency re: anti-semitism over recent months, but I can see how that line of argument can make people bristle

Jones's "if this had been (x)" argument is wholly legit to me after seeing Marco Rubio's statement yesterday in which he had to throw in a bunch of "I don't agree with them [the gays] but this is America" bullshit. Like, no one would feel the need to say that after an attack at a church (or wherever), nor should they.

this was clearly a hate crime against lgbtq people. anyone who tries to avoid dealing with that fact has suspicious motives.

loved your piece alfred.

this is one about pulse specifically - http://fusion.net/story/312960/pulse-orlando-safe-haven/

"that anti-semitism is always taken seriously in a way that hatred directed at other minorities isn't, when in fact anti-semitism is downplayed and apologised for all the time?"

with all due respect, when/where is anti-semitism downplayed and apologised for all the time?

on the far left

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/05/why-are-oberlin-s-students-so-silent-about-anti-semitism.html

i should clarify and say, in certain corners of the far left. adbusters is famous for flirting with antisemitic imagery.

with all due respect, when/where is anti-semitism downplayed and apologised for all the time?

david schraub has written about this a few times if yr interested.

this might be taking this thread where it doesnt need to go, BUT

"on the far left"

im not condoning anti semitism on the far left, and i would prefer if ken livingstone stopped drinking and stopped doing interviews forever, but its not like his comments went unreported or with no opposition. you could not move that week for coverage of what he said, whether it was on the radio, the press, the internet.

basically, and im not saying anti semitism has magically vanished (i know someone who was wearing a kippah and had someone shout 'hitler' at him just a few years ago), but jones is somewhat right. in the heirarchy of discrimination, there is a higher level of defence/protection/support against anti semitism in the wider culture, and in the media, then there is for other types of discrimination/hate crimes, etc. simply, a higher level of visibility and discourse is allowed. jewish people are 'othered' far less than they used to be, some 50 or so years ago. sorry, but i have not seen routine anti jewish headlines in the last 30 odd years in the way i have seen routine anti muslim headlines in the last 15 (and in no way do i defend or condone any casual anti semitic sentiment or cultural intolerance from muslims, for that matter).

yes, its not really helpful to start ranking who gets the most protection, or whose discrimination is more accepted, etc etc. but chances are that if say, that attack had taken place at a synagogue, a) the daily mail would have it on the front page b) that sky news reporter most certainly would not have felt he was allowed to deny who the gunman wanted to kill, and why.

Why have Jews in the U.K. never won a reported discrimination case against non-Jewish defendants?

xp Please take your own advice regarding what is and isn't helpful.

In other actually relevant news, ex-ILXor Anthony Easton, also at MTV (should I start reading the site on the regular - I know now that Jessica Hopper is involved?)

http://www.mtv.com/news/2891856/how-can-we-say-it-gets-better-after-orlando/

this might be taking this thread where it doesnt need to go, BUT

If only you had left it there.

a ton of the wall-to-wall coverage i saw of the recent livingstone incident was explicitly apologetics about how he was not actually saying anything antisemitic, but i think, as long as we're detouring here for a moment, it's interesting how jews are so often the referent group for what it looks like when bigotry /is/ taken seriously when talking about disparate cases that have nothing to do with them (like someone in connection w/ this case might have noted that jewish places + events have been under extreme vigilance for years now - i've mentioned before on ilx how disconcerting it is dropping yr kids off at a school w/ an armed guard in front bc jewish schools in the neighborhood that week received bomb threats, but instead the discussion is "hey how come those jews get taken seriously" when also 'jewish hysteria' is also v much a serious trope). anyway, whatever.

Jones's "if this had been (x)" argument

Er, I could be wrong, but as far as I know he didn't say this - that's Peter Tatchell's line.

I don't believe he did, but he might have, he was obviously very angry. Also I didn't read too many apologetics for Livingstone tbh, but can we drop it?

xpost

I was referring to the guy who walked off the set and who kept trying to make the argument that had this been an anti-semitic attack, people would call it what it is.

yeah, i'm actually going to bump the antisemitism thread w/ my post bc i want to add something but that's the appropriate place for this discussion. i'd ask a mod to remove my post here but i don't feel like it and i'm sure we can all just ignore this tangent (or go to the other thread if there's more to say) xp