Another fucking spree shooting. Great.

xxpost, yep, seen a bit of that around, mostly from people who struggle to hold one coherent point of view and seem oblivious to the concept of multi-faceted arguments.

If this anti-Owen Jones stuff is mindblowingly annoying, I'd advise you to steer clear of James Delingpole's Twitter feed (like you don't all do that anyway - it was brought to my attention by a friend and I have been seething about his idiocy all day)

"As a Jewish person (albeit non-practicing and non-believing), the whole "you wouldn't complain if it had been Jews instead of <x>" line of argument makes me wince -- there often seems to be the underlying hint that we don't deserve such treatment"

i think he was simply saying that there is an acceptance of there being such a thing as anti semitism, whereas for many other groups, that acceptance is not there, or to a much lesser degree. not sure how you inferred that he thinks jews dont deserve such treatment.

"Gay club and most of the victims seem to have been Hispanic. That might cause some problems for some people."

victims who were both gay *AND* hispanic. i imagine trump supporters are happy someone did their dirty work for them, AND yet still allowed them to be able to hate the gunman.

the orlando killer is like a gift, he fulfills all hate-fueled needs.

i think he was simply saying that there is an acceptance of there being such a thing as anti semitism, whereas for many other groups, that acceptance is not there, or to a much lesser degree. not sure how you inferred that he thinks jews dont deserve such treatment.

I think the point is that using anti-semitism as the gold standard for bigotry can come across as implying that Jews are somehow getting special treatment, that anti-semitism is always taken seriously in a way that hatred directed at other minorities isn't, when in fact anti-semitism is downplayed and apologised for all the time?

to be fair to Jones, I think don't think that this is where he is coming from and he has been pretty outspoken in challenging the left-wing complacency re: anti-semitism over recent months, but I can see how that line of argument can make people bristle

Jones's "if this had been (x)" argument is wholly legit to me after seeing Marco Rubio's statement yesterday in which he had to throw in a bunch of "I don't agree with them [the gays] but this is America" bullshit. Like, no one would feel the need to say that after an attack at a church (or wherever), nor should they.

this was clearly a hate crime against lgbtq people. anyone who tries to avoid dealing with that fact has suspicious motives.

loved your piece alfred.

this is one about pulse specifically - http://fusion.net/story/312960/pulse-orlando-safe-haven/

"that anti-semitism is always taken seriously in a way that hatred directed at other minorities isn't, when in fact anti-semitism is downplayed and apologised for all the time?"

with all due respect, when/where is anti-semitism downplayed and apologised for all the time?

on the far left

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/05/why-are-oberlin-s-students-so-silent-about-anti-semitism.html

i should clarify and say, in certain corners of the far left. adbusters is famous for flirting with antisemitic imagery.

with all due respect, when/where is anti-semitism downplayed and apologised for all the time?

david schraub has written about this a few times if yr interested.

this might be taking this thread where it doesnt need to go, BUT

"on the far left"

im not condoning anti semitism on the far left, and i would prefer if ken livingstone stopped drinking and stopped doing interviews forever, but its not like his comments went unreported or with no opposition. you could not move that week for coverage of what he said, whether it was on the radio, the press, the internet.

basically, and im not saying anti semitism has magically vanished (i know someone who was wearing a kippah and had someone shout 'hitler' at him just a few years ago), but jones is somewhat right. in the heirarchy of discrimination, there is a higher level of defence/protection/support against anti semitism in the wider culture, and in the media, then there is for other types of discrimination/hate crimes, etc. simply, a higher level of visibility and discourse is allowed. jewish people are 'othered' far less than they used to be, some 50 or so years ago. sorry, but i have not seen routine anti jewish headlines in the last 30 odd years in the way i have seen routine anti muslim headlines in the last 15 (and in no way do i defend or condone any casual anti semitic sentiment or cultural intolerance from muslims, for that matter).

yes, its not really helpful to start ranking who gets the most protection, or whose discrimination is more accepted, etc etc. but chances are that if say, that attack had taken place at a synagogue, a) the daily mail would have it on the front page b) that sky news reporter most certainly would not have felt he was allowed to deny who the gunman wanted to kill, and why.

Why have Jews in the U.K. never won a reported discrimination case against non-Jewish defendants?

xp Please take your own advice regarding what is and isn't helpful.

In other actually relevant news, ex-ILXor Anthony Easton, also at MTV (should I start reading the site on the regular - I know now that Jessica Hopper is involved?)

http://www.mtv.com/news/2891856/how-can-we-say-it-gets-better-after-orlando/

this might be taking this thread where it doesnt need to go, BUT

If only you had left it there.

a ton of the wall-to-wall coverage i saw of the recent livingstone incident was explicitly apologetics about how he was not actually saying anything antisemitic, but i think, as long as we're detouring here for a moment, it's interesting how jews are so often the referent group for what it looks like when bigotry /is/ taken seriously when talking about disparate cases that have nothing to do with them (like someone in connection w/ this case might have noted that jewish places + events have been under extreme vigilance for years now - i've mentioned before on ilx how disconcerting it is dropping yr kids off at a school w/ an armed guard in front bc jewish schools in the neighborhood that week received bomb threats, but instead the discussion is "hey how come those jews get taken seriously" when also 'jewish hysteria' is also v much a serious trope). anyway, whatever.

Jones's "if this had been (x)" argument

Er, I could be wrong, but as far as I know he didn't say this - that's Peter Tatchell's line.

I don't believe he did, but he might have, he was obviously very angry. Also I didn't read too many apologetics for Livingstone tbh, but can we drop it?

xpost

I was referring to the guy who walked off the set and who kept trying to make the argument that had this been an anti-semitic attack, people would call it what it is.

yeah, i'm actually going to bump the antisemitism thread w/ my post bc i want to add something but that's the appropriate place for this discussion. i'd ask a mod to remove my post here but i don't feel like it and i'm sure we can all just ignore this tangent (or go to the other thread if there's more to say) xp

I'm confused as to how this came up -- what was the first post in the latest round that brought up comparisons to antisemitism? I feel like I am seeing responses with no referent.

the context was this interview:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2016/06/watch-owen-jones-walks-sky-news-debate-whether-orlando-was-homophobic-attack

In context I have no problem with that quote.

but we can/should take it to the other thread

Alfred, I shared your piece on Facebook and it was very well received. One friend (who is gay and latino) said it would stay with him a long time.

If someone's downplaying an attack on a minority it's because they have an agenda which in their mind trumps the rights and protection of that minority.

It's pretty obvious what that agenda is here.

Alfred, I shared your piece on Facebook and it was very well received. One friend (who is gay and latino) said it would stay with him a long time.

― 6 god none the richer (m bison),

❤

i liked that piece too. nice one.

Yes, me too - posting Anthony's piece wasn't in any way a mark against yours.

oh man our company just sent out an email that one of the victims worked for us :( :(

St@nley Alm0d0var III
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/orlando-nightclub-mass-shooting-pulse-victims/

@issielapowsky
"It’s an assault on the ability of free people to live their lives, love who they want, and express their identity"- Trump on Orlando

@DougHenwood
Trump got woke!

FWIW, the Roswell, NM man who massacred his family (wife and four kids) on Saturday was caught in Mexico.
http://www.koat.com/news/5-people-dead-in-roswell-home/40019230

Did not see this coming.

http://gawker.com/orlando-shooter-was-reportedly-a-regular-at-pulse-and-h-1781920316

In the preliminary reports, he struck me as a self-hating homosexual, judging by what his wife & colleagues said.

the deadliest homophobia is internalized homophobia

+ guns obviously

This doesn't entirely surprise me tbh.

It still feels a little too easy, to me, to write this off as "yup, a self-hating gay." I'll be curious to see where this goes, of course, but his presence at gay bars and on dating apps (particularly if he was antagonistic in these communications) doesn't automatically lead to a conclusion as simple as that.

True. Needs further confirmation.

Ah, my governor: https://www.rawstory.com/2016/06/rick-scott-refuses-on-cnn-to-acknowledge-gay-people-were-targeted-at-orlando-nightclub/

Chris Hayes, as usual, doing on the street interviews with Pulse patrons.

of course

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/police-hunt-gunman-opened-fire-w-va-state-park-article-1.2672447

Police in West Virginia responded to an active shooter incident outside a state park Monday evening in which three people were believed killed, officials said.

Cops from the Washington County Sheriff’s Office said that they were searching for a white pick-up truck with a wooden dump bed that may have been involved in the 6 p.m. shooting.

The gunman may be carrying an assault rifle, according to early reports.

Police said the gunman opened fire outside Cacapon State Park. At least three people were killed, officials said.

xpost FUCK

vigil going on right now. I didn't feel up to it (I'm sick, to boot) but lots of friends there volunteering or attending. my brother is at the vigil for his co-worker. fairly upset that in my exhausted stupor I missed my mother's text inviting us both to lunch, just wanted to see him and make sure he was ok. he's 34 but I always see him as my little 11 year old brother when this shit happens. another friend lost a former co-worker today, now that 48 of the 49 names are in quite a few others have as well.

read the article about the couple that was getting ready to wed and it's just too much. but offset it with my close friend's tweet about how she has fundraised $1300 for the survivors last night on Twitch.

then to hear that Christina Grimmie was in process of giving her attacker a hug when he shot her.....this is why I repress feelings.

the removing LGBT from their own tragedy shit is infuriating.......the same bullshit story of the same people who marginalize a group to where they have to band together and organize just to survive, now insisting we focus on the "Americans" that lost their lives instead of the LGBT community. Sure weren't doing much to make them feel like Americans as far back as a week ago.

have a feeling every club that can afford it (which is probably very few of them tbh) is going to upgrade security to install detectors....it's security theatre but if it gives us peace of mind I'm down with it.

also targeted Disney among other places before changing the venue. just thinking about if he had targeted one of the best things about Orlando, Fringe Festival, which isn't an LGBT themed festival but has many LGBT-sponsored/friendly shows. terrifying to think if he had showed up there.

meanwhile Pastor Steven Anderson can go fuck himself. social media shutdown needs to happen (though i slowly realized I picked good people as friends after this week)

in slightly better news, even though such a poll means little at this stage with such high rates of undecideds and pre-convention, even the "4% GOP-directed sampling error" Rasmussen has Hildawg comfortably in front. I don't love her, but keeping that fetid capybara out of the office is a must.

tho finding out that he's using Christie to get his #2 combos at McDonald's was a needed LOL today

What's often missing in a couple of the (less frequent these days, admittedly) dismissals of Disneyland and Walt Disney World is that it's one of the safest places on Earth for LGBT patrons and employees. Gay Days are massive. I can't begin to imagine the grief had Mateen done his deed last weekend.

oh yeah, it would have been cataclysmic.

from an article I just read in the Sentinel by a pal of mine, lots of local venues are indeed adding detectors (Universal did it last year).

The Abbey (a fun little cabaret/theatre spot) had ARMED GUARDS at its Tony Awards party. unthinkable a week ago.

thing is though no matter what measures you put in, the scary thing is anybody that is hell bent on wanton destruction and murder often finds a way to succeed. and most clubs don't have that kinda money. when I go to the Orpheum in Tampa, you walk by a doorman. no wand, no frisk - just a doorman.

I'm a little on edge about the prospect of going to the Orlando City match this Saturday tbh but I'm going to show up. security's fairly good there tho.

Much love, Neanderthal. I'm feeling more not less secure, which is not Soto-esque at all.

Much love to both of you. I spent much of yesterday consoling my husband, who was more broken up by this than he says he would have expected to be (post-Sandy Hook, I feel more numb than anything else about these things myself), but I cannot imagine how devastating it must be to have the kind of proximity to the tragedy that you guys have.

I really appreciate those posts, Neanderthal. All the best to you and your community. And to you too Al x