ILX, coach me up: the "White Straight Guy Who Sucks" Narrative and corresponding lack of "... Who Sucks" in anything other than indie snooze

pitch perfect

try watching something with a female protagonist

inside out

the dark crystal

oops i meant labyrinth

baby mama

every episode of broad city maybe

lady dynamite

some like it hot

the descent

jupiter ascending (jk she ends up scrubbing toilets voluntarily)

how high (technically)

dear white people (lionel higgins' subplot)

steven universe

Various Whoopi Goldberg roles?

Abbott, while most of those examples are good women-lead movies, I don't think they're what Tombot is looking after... There's a stereotypical movie narrative where the white dude starts out as ineffectual or a loser, but manages to overcome this at the crucial moment, when they're needed the most. The protagonists in, say, Clueless, Labyrinth, or Inside Out are not losers; they're resourceful and even successful, but they also have a crucial flaw that causes the crisis/conflict of the movie, and which they have to overcome to solve the crisis, which is a bit different from the "loser steps up to save the day". Out of your examples (that I've seen), I think only Legally Blonde kinda fits into the loser pattern.

And IMO Tombot is right that in mainstream Western fiction this narrative is most of the time used with white straight guys, because with other groups fiction makers tend to either fall for the tired old negative stereotypes (the non-white/non-straight/non-guy is ineffectual throughout the story and/or has only a supporting role), or for positive stereotypes that can also be problematic (people who are not white straight guys are portrayed as more perfect than they realistically should be, because the writer doesn't want anyone to think he subscribes to those old negative stereotypes).

I think one of the main reasons the first Harold & Kumar movie and Bridesmaids felt so refreshing and became so popular was because they put non-whites/non-guys into those loser roles, and that resonated with a lot of people (because obviously not only straight white guys can relate to these types). Which means there is a mainstream audience for this kind of non-stereotypical characterization, but the examples still remain rare, and seem to be mostly found in comedies.

http://www.womenyoushouldknow.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/MANSPLAIN-Magazine-e1432226049949.jpg

Yeah, I realized that right after I'd hit the "Submit post" button. I'm sorry about it, Abbott.

It depends on how the person sucks and how they stop sucking.

The 'person who seems average-at-best but turns out to be the chosen one/Messiah/DEM' thing should just die immediately regardless of what kind of person is fulfilling the role.

The 'person who is unjustly disadvantaged but demonstrably smart enough to eventually win' trope still has great value particularly if not focussed on SWMs.

Abbott, in which of those movies does the female protagonist actually pretty much suck and then continue to basically be unremarkable except for the one defining moment in the 3rd act?

Appropriate behaviour

i don't think either bilbo or frodo "suck" prior to a single redemptive moment. in fact, most of the examples in the OP are of relatively ordinary men - not stereotypical losers - who low-key heroically struggle against long odds in an unusually noble and decent manner before ultimately winning out. as abbott suggests, there are many, many stories about women that follow a similar formula.

someone had better work "White Straight Guy Who Sucks" into the next gay thread title

Bilbo and Frodo are mostly good at hiding, but that means they are good at something, so I guess they are invalid for this thread. In The Two Towers, though, Merry and Pippin are definitely not good at anything.

Obviously I didn't clearly think this all the way through or I could have explicated a clearer set of criteria for Guy Who Sucks roles:

1. Not particularly good at anything - MAYBE one skill or attribute (typing, speaking a foreign language, being small) that isn't immediately crucial or possibly even maladaptive.
2. "Earns" heroic moment mostly by just showing up. No ninja moves or other displays of heretofore unrealized special potential.
3. Character arc consists of the subject learning that bravery actually mostly consists of not hiding.

I THINK this is closer to what I was trying to get at. I'm still happy if I'm totally wrong and as Abbott put it this is basically because I don't watch enough movies with non-SWM protagonists, but Inside Out is totally not what I'm talking about, nor is Jupiter Ascending or Legally Blonde. Clueless might count even though Cher is set up to be wealthy, popular and attractive, since those are all in contrast to how much she basically sucks at everything she tries to accomplish until the end.

Is there a thing where the Guy Who Sucks is there as audience standin, to be wowed by the many cinematic things around him, because white straight guys are proven by science to be the most relatable?

someone had better work "White Straight Guy Who Sucks" into the next gay thread title

― (a phenomenon analyzed in gender studies) (crüt), Tuesday, July 12, 2016 10:05 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

co-worker: White Straight Guy in the conference room.

Girl who sucks, but makes good against the odds - Working Girl?

I'm still having a hard time thinking of quite which character arc/trope you're looking for, Tombot. In my mind the OP was sort of gesturing towards loser-makes-good underdog stories, where our hero (a regular shmoe with no extraordinary abilities, put-upon by life in whatever ways, but nonetheless 'likable' and with a good heart) eventually wins out. Reminded me of the Redlettermedia 'protagonist' discussion (regarding what's missing in The Phantom Menace) which invokes the kid from Gremlins, Marty McFly, Sarah Connor, Charlie Bucket, the Rocketeer, Kevin Bacon in Tremors, et al. But none of these win out just by "showing up" - in the face of an unexpected set of obstacles or circumstances, they display resourcefulness, creative problem-solving, a reservoir of unexpected courage, or just smarts or a moral compass when they're needed.

What I was thinking you were going for were versions of that, distinct from stories where it's all about a problem the character creates and has to clean up, or ones (as milo z suggests) where the thing to be overcome is specifically about their Otherness vis-a-vis the straight white guy. I think that'd be a pretty interesting list tbh!

For some reason, the character type I'm envisioning (and mostly just envisioning as I can't think of many examples) is almost a villain. Someone ineffectual and/or incompetent but opportunistic enough to seize on being in the right place at the right time and taking on the unearned mantle of hero as a result. Sounds like every middle manager ever to me.

It's like Jar Jar, basically. Bumblefuck around and get in everyone's way for years and then cast the deciding vote that allows an ultimately despotic emperor to take over the universe.

Reminded me of the Redlettermedia 'protagonist' discussion (regarding what's missing in The Phantom Menace) which invokes the kid from Gremlins, Marty McFly, Sarah Connor, Charlie Bucket, the Rocketeer, Kevin Bacon in Tremors, et al. But none of these win out just by "showing up" - in the face of an unexpected set of obstacles or circumstances, they display resourcefulness, creative problem-solving, a reservoir of unexpected courage, or just smarts or a moral compass when they're needed.

I like most of your examples tbf. Sarah Connor is a good one. I'm now realizing almost every Final Girl fits in my criteria. "Show up, don't get killed."

Okay, that helps a bit. So these people don't really suck, they just haven't gotten their chance to shine (or need to go through some kind of arc that tests them and brings out their real strengths, say). I'm thinking also of lots of kids' stories about someone with a special gift that only some recognize, like Babe. So, we're looking for non-SWG versions of that?

Yeah, okay, I get that. Less exploiting the situation and more rising to the occasion.

There's a pretty good Marjorie Liu X-Men story where an ordinary girl saves the day with her empathy in a situation where the X-Men's tendency towards aggression would've wreaked serious havoc. But that's comics and not a movie.

Comics are good too. Novels etc. I just only seem to make time for movies and teevee any more these days because I have turned into NONFICTION ONLY reader and also movies are what they have on the airplane

It'll probably be hard to find many televisual examples of this. I'd imagine that it's difficult to maintain a hapless character over a number of years just to have them pull through in the end. Maybe like Xander on Buffy?

(Who is, naturally, a SWG.)

even with this adjusted set of criteria, i can think of nearly as many female examples as male (and you have to allow for the fact that stories about women are often different in structure, theme and detail than stories about men).

i mean, start with alice in wonderland and the wizard of oz...

Why not Pursuit of Happyness?

Smith's character is a very dedicated father and has admirable persistence, but basically fails at life until he suddenly, spectacularly, succeeds Against All Odds.

if you INSIST the protagonist MUST be a total loser, i am still happy to star in a slapstick comedy about being a fat stoner based on me in my late 20s

this is one of those threads where the OP constantly moves some goalposts that were never really there

yeah i'm pretty confused at this point what archetype we're shooting for now

i was thinking it is about a character who has a hamartia they over come in the end

Here are some female characters who manifestly do not have their shit together, until things miraculously start going right (after much tribulation): Bridget Jones. Romy and Michelle. Frances Ha. Seems like plenty of movies like "Trainwreck" and "Pitch Perfect" have that arc.

I mean, if you're just looking for inspiring overcoming-adversity stories featuring diverse protagonists, those are not in short supply; my daughter finds stuff like "The Gabby Douglas Story" and "Akeelah and the Bee" to be effectively girl-powery.

Abbott otm

I'm trying to remember if Wonderfalls counts.

At least I fully acknowledged this thread idea needed to go back in the oven in the OP

It's an interesting topic to explore. There's a germ of an alternate Bechdel test in there somewhere. It's probably always a good thing to investigate whether certain narrative tropes tend to favor straight white dudes.

I almost brought up Bridget Jones, then wondered if maybe hidden in the penumbras of the unstated questions was some desire that, basically, the story was not about romantic success/"getting a man" or otherwise measuring up to conventional norms of the straight-white-guy-dominated universe, etc. Like basically trying to get at a certain kind of "everyman" story where the "man" is definitely not neutral - it's "everyman" who's down on his luck and doesn't think he'll amount to much but then he wins the big game or rises to the occasion and beats the terrorists etc.... and to the extent that non-SWGs get these stories, a great many of them are about heteronormative romance success, OR about difficulties specifically associated with their non-SWGness (the Mulan/Brave/Bend It Like Beckham model). I don't think this is ironclad or without exceptions over the last decades of Hollywood productions - the Bechdel test gets at something way more ubiquitous and probably more insidious in screenwriting - but there's something kinda interesting here somewhere, IMO.

and racism

lol

i think Aykroyd is on record that he would've liked more than 30 seconds of John Lee Hooker in TBB, but the studio had other ideas (tho i'm sure John Landis wd've been fine with a 4-hour movie). Still that was undoubtedly a gateway for many teens to those artists, an argument could be made.

Swanky Modes 4evs

i will start a thread bc i am responsible for the thread derail. sorry, everyone!

hey here's a good thread connection:

•ILX, coach me up: the "White Straight Guy Who Sucks" Narrative and corresponding lack of "... Who Sucks" in anything other than indie snooze [Started by El Tomboto in July 2016, last updated 1 minute ago by horseshoe on I Love Everything] 142 new answers
•Kristen Wiig, Leslie Jones, Kate McKinnon, Melissa McCarthy = new Ghostbusters [Started by Ned Raggett in January 2015, last updated 2 minutes ago by j.o. seasoning (how's life) on I Love Everything] 149 new answers

Well if nothing else this thread has given me a lot to chew on in terms of how I unconsciously expect my protagonists to behave and yeah, what they look like.

For one thing I'm now pretty sure I have a soft bigotry of low expectations thing with female characters vis-a-vis resourcefulness (and perhaps women IRL, ugh, OK better to be self-aware). ME Winstead assembling a makeshift hazmat suit MacGyver-style in 10 Cloverfield Lane, and later a molotov cocktail = wow she's a badass, therefore not an example of this trope, but on further examination, isn't that the trope?!? My brain

For another (to ME - this is my attempted exploration of my own bias and not a projection of how things are inside any other head(s)) anywhere outside of fantasy settings (Star Wars counts btw) non-StrWhiDude protagonists are pretty much always going to up against an additional level of adversity above and beyond what a StrWhiDude would be dealing with, so just by virtue of *being* the protagonist in a world where StrWhiDudes are "the norm" they can't really be schmuckatellis in the same way that a hapless StrWhiDude is. I feel like I could really use a whiteboard here to help me nail it down a little more precisely. Put another way - a hapless female or minority hero in a "real world" setting is automatically not sucking as much as a hapless StrWhiDude hero, because in order for the latter to be hapless and sucking in the first place, they have to be sucking pretty hard given that they live in the "real world" where they have maximum default privilege etc.

Finn in Ep 8 is quickly becoming illustrative of how a black character can totally fit this poorly-defined trope I've made up, and I think the fact that he is from far-away long-ago galaxy is the reason why I don't saddle him with my "oh he's also up against racial prejudice therefore doesn't actually suck" bullshit

Most of the hobbits, though, still pretty much guys who suck

Sam is/was a badass though

He took down that spider thing HARDCORE.

non-StrWhiDude protagonists are pretty much always going to up against an additional level of adversity above and beyond what a StrWhiDude would be dealing with, so just by virtue of *being* the protagonist in a world where StrWhiDudes are "the norm" they can't really be schmuckatellis in the same way that a hapless StrWhiDude is.

― El Tomboto, Wednesday, July 13, 2016 8:44 AM (3 minutes ago)

Was thinking about this yesterday, in light of Abbott's megaton tbomb, "if [the accidental hero archetype] only exists w/cis white het men that is probably because they are the only people privilieged enough for that dumbshit magic to happen to."

The "everyman falls into greatness" trope doesn't just reflect str8 white male privilege. It's its mythic foundation, the way the dominant culture tells the story of such privilege to itself. You will get the job just because, as legends have foretold, and once there you will be promoted. It may seem to you that you're aren't really doing all that much, but sometimes just being there and being *you* is enough.

Sam explained potatoes to Gollum, he is a paragon of patience

Smeagol was definitely a dude who sucked

The Lego Movie goes to town on this :)

It would be cool if one day society gets to the point where a remake of Edge of Tomorrow ("Live Die Repeat") could swap or otherwise alter the gender / color / orientation of the lead characters and be not seen as being all about the diminishment of the type of person in the Tom Cruise role. That's part of what I'm doing a terrible job circumscribing here.

What constitutes suckiness isn't clear cut. There are drab failures and glamorous failures, ground-down failures and resilient failures.

this is not exactly the same thing, but I realized a couple of years ago that the movie Adventures in Babysitting is a huge apologia for Reaganite politics. There are a bunch of different ways this manifests itself (including "scary" black people on the El and the fact that Elizabeth Shue=good guy because she's a virgin), but the scene that most fully drives it home is when the Elizabeth Shue character is on the phone with her friend, whose rescue is the whole impetus of the film. The friend is at a bus station which is portrayed as the deepest level of hell. The friend has commandeered a phone booth which is usually occupied by a homeless man. While friend is on the phone with ES, homeless man returns and knocks on the door of the phone booth, imploring, "that's my home!" ES's friend, with whom we're meant to sympathize, kicks the homeless man's personal effects out of the booth (I remember slippers) and shouts, "you just moved!" I used to love this movie, but it is some chilling shit to rewatch.

― horsehoe (horseshoe), Sunday, February 12, 2006 4:42 AM (10 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

love this post. this movie is so fucked up! the blues club too...what was going to happen if they didn't sing the blues? was albert collins going to murder them?? did the villains have to sing the blues??? how much time was left for albert collins to perform if everyone in the venue had to sing at least once????

all the penelope ann miller bus station stuff was rough. in retrospect the best characters were the tow truck driver and the kid sister, probably. but i still like the movie as a sort of perfect melding of ferris bueller and judgement night.

and oh man they left that dude on the facade of the crain communications building at the end of the movie. he was still there after the credits!

The kid sister with the Thor helmet is a horror – my idea of hell is that girl as Satan.

i remember liking her character for whatever reason but i also haven't seen the movie since the '90s

never forget

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9GBuciv20A