defend the indefensible: FACE DANCES by the who

Was "Athena" on this record too? That was crap.

(Athena was on It's Hard, btw. It's Hard has gone up in my estimation, yet, it's still crap.)

"Face Dances" shared its name with an equally horrible townshend solo track.

"You Better You Bet" is decidedly not a powerhouse (considering what the band was capable of). It's a throwaway....lyrically and musically.

"Another Tricky Day" was great, too--glad that was mentioned. Townshend had a lot of great songs on his solo albums Empty Glass and All the Best Cowboys...around this time, too.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Had I heard it later I might have judged it differently, but I remember playing it over and over as a kid and dancing around the Christmas tree to it. I think I even broke the tape I played it so many times. It was certainly cut from a different cloth than anything else on the radio back then.

actually yeah, kinda. i could almost see bernard sumner singing it, for some reason.

Why, you could almost say that it's a put-on!

-- Eisbär

I agree with this. He doesn't have the right for mid-tempo adult contempo rock. Check Pete's demo version of "You Better You Bet" for comparison.

Exactly. And part of what makes it so rad is the fact that ROGER DALTREY is singing it.

I listened to Face Dances and It's Hard for the first time in probably a dozen years or so. They pale in comparison to the great albums by The Who, but honestly I thought they were better listens than I remembered. I think the thing that I didn't like about it was that it didn't have the bombast of your usual tracks by The Who, but on this listen I think I could hear it for what it is more than what I wanted. There is more and better integration of electronics than you would have thought and Entwistle just plays like a brilliant bastard through both of the records.

Considering how cutting edge Townsend was on using sequencers and electronics, it is kind of suprising that he didn't go for the big Fairlight/Synclavier recordings next. I think something like White City, which has some great tunes and that anthemic sound on some could have been even better as a Who album.

The Who were my favorite band. I might have been too young to understand exactly how "Cache Cache" and "Don't Let Go the Coat" would fit into my life, but I knew they were my future as much as "Tattoo" and "I Can't Explain" were my past.

I think the thing that I didn't like about it was that it didn't have the bombast of your usual tracks by The Who

earl, as always I like your commentary and am pleased you revived this thread. one question though: don't you think Who's Next felt the same way? Other than "Who Are You" I guess, of course. But the rest of that LP kind of felt like it was already going in the direction of 'Face Dances'. I mean, I *love* Who's Next, don't get me wrong, but I do see that softening of their sound here already, so all Face Dances really represented was a drummer change. And sure, Moon is irreplaceable, but if you *have* to find a replacement, you could do a lot worse than Kenny. I honestly don't think Moon's presence would have changed the sound of these LPs too much, and I'm just glad to have them .. sub-par as they are

Keith Moon circa 1969 would have definitely changed the sounds of those records. I'm imagining what he would've played under You Better You Bet, and it brings a smile to my face.

The hypothetical Keith Moon circa 1981... judging from his Who Are You parts, yeah, probably wouldn't have made much difference.

One thing that's often forgotten (understandably so, given the lifeless and desultory 1980, '81, and '82 tours) was that the 1979 Who shows with Jones were uniformly praised. I agree with Stormy: they could have done a lot worse than Jones, and I never thought he was the problem with this or It's Hard. As Jones said at the time, Townshend kept the best songs for his solo records and gave the Who the rejects. Supporting this, there are (unreleased at the time) Who versions of "Empty Glass" (with Moon) and "Somebody Saved Me" (with Jones). When given something substantial to dig into -- "You Better You Bet," "Another Tricky Day," or "Daily Records" -- Jones rises to the occasion. I think the real problem, other than Townshend's rejects, is the production. Bill Szymczyk sucked the life out of the band, completely stripping it of the dynamism it was capable of. Entwistle hated it: "He recorded everything in groups of three. I don't like playing a backing track too many times. We'd get a really good one and he'd say 'Give me three more exactly the same'. I lost a lot of confidence worrying about being brainwashed by the song, so I didn't play as loosely as I might have."

I don't know, the song "Who Are You" definitely has that big boom of the earlier records, so when Moon was inspired it could come through. Moon also has some pretty big flourishes on "Trick of the Light". Moon was having problems playing the stuff though towards the end, as that is why there is no drums on "Music Must Change" which was in 6/8.

"Who by Numbers" is a pretty subdued record, it's more like where Townsend went with his solo career.

I definitely think Townsend felt like he couldn't work all of his tunes out within the constraints of the Who, which is kind of a shame, as the guy had the best rock bassist in the world who could have probably did anything needed. Rough Boys is a great song and recording, but man you can hear in your mind what the Who could have done with that track.

I'm going to give them another listen this weekend, I was just surprised by the consistency of both records. That period of the Who did come up with Eminence Front, which is easily one of their alltime best tracks, so it wasn't completely disregarded. I think the thing that kind of orphans these two albums is that they quit going on.

Eh, they all hated each other at this point. Booze and drugs had killed one of them. Those kids getting killed in Cincy had to be a huge guilt to have on you. I can see why it didn't continue. Times had changed. You can see just in what was out there though, The Who could have had an interesting second act.

That's kind of interesting about how the record was made. I'd imagine that would kill the interplay between the instruments. I guess most of the Who Are You album was kind of made in the same way, just overdubbing on-top of very detailed demos. The group had lost that live interplay that made the earlier group so exciting. I don't doubt that to be the case.

When set against the pace at which bands make records these days, it seems kind of insane that in their four post-Moon years they made two albums and did four major tours. In later interviews, Pete said that he wished the band had stopped completely after Cincinnati. I've also read that he originally intended By Numbers to be their last album.

They definitely hated each other. The only one with any enthusiasm for continuing was Jones, and Entwistle just wanted to tour non-stop. Daltrey went along with It's Hard to help Pete's post-rehab recovery, but wasn't happy about the result: "It's Hard should never have been released. I had huge rows with Pete...when the album was finished and I heard it I said, 'Pete, this is just a complete piece of shit and it should never come out!' It came out because as usual we were being manipulated at that time by other things. The record company wanted a record out and they wanted us to do a tour. What I said to Pete was, 'Pete, if we'd tried to get any of these songs onto Face Dances, or any of the albums that we've done since our first fucking album, we would not allow these songs to be on an album! Why are we releasing them? Why? Let's just say that was an experience to pull the band back together, now let's go and make an album.' He said, 'Too late. It's good enough, that's how we are now.'"

It's true that a lot of Who Are You was the band overdubbing Pete's demos, but they'd done that a lot on Who's Next, so they probably figured this wouldn't be much different (even the backing percussion track of "Slip Kid" is from Pete's demo). What's interesting/frustrating, is that Moon's best Who Are You performance, overdubbing the "Empty Glass" demo with Entwistle, went unreleased until 1996:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDTVgq62-m4

How many Who fans were gonna be into "Don't Let Go of the Coat"? Done by any other band, it'd be heard totally differently. I've seen it faithfully covered and loved it.

Townshend kept the best songs for his solo records and gave the Who the rejects

absolutely true. townshend's solo work beginning with empty glass all the way through white city is stronger than any material he let the who have (except for eminence and you better). if he's given the who the best of that material, they would in no way have had that creative slump.

I like this album but "You Better You Bet" is embarrassing.

Ha, I love Daltrey's vocal on "You Better You Bet". Never heard the whole album, though.

Have yet to read the whole thread but if there is a "me to the world: are we hearing the same record?" thread, this would be my contribution. I think this record is, if not exactly great, very, very good and I have never understood why it's so poorly rated

Always wondered if Roger was doing a Peter Gabriel impression on "How Can You Do It Alone." The verses are sung with an inflection (and in a register) very similar to Gabriel circa TLLDOB, specifically "Broadway Melody"

I also think it's a good record, obvious hit single excepted.

Yeah I always start the album on track 2, though I think that has more to do with overexposure to YBYB than dislike. I probably wouldn't bother skipping it if it wasn't first

just gotta get used to it!

I have never understood why it's so poorly rated

A lot of it had to do with the crazy expectations for it at the time. After two (1979 & 1980) widely acclaimed tours, and how everyone was raving about Empty Glass, how could the next Who album be anything but insanely brilliant?

And if "You" was swapped out with the outtake "I Like Nightmares," this record would've been even better. All the humor had vanished from Entwistle's songs, and he seemed only able (or willing) to crank out anonymous AOR arena rock -- "It's Your Turn" on It's Hard is my least favorite Who song by a significant margin.

I wouldn't call it a great record - some songs feel kind of weak when I listen to them closely out of context, and there are quite a few moments where Jones's drumming is so ordinary that I really miss Keith Moon because you can imagine how he could have put things over. But there's no way I'd call this a bad album either, it really is like a B+ or a 3 1/2 star album in my book.

lotsa people shit on Kenney for his having to follow up Moon. But Pete has said, as I'm sure that Tarfumes knows, that after awhile it was impossible/frustrating to play with a rhythm section that filled every single available space… it would give even the most generous musician not named Godfrey Townshend or Steve Luongo a terrible headache… I don't recall what Entwistle ever said about Kenney, but I do recall Roger being very dismissive of Kenney's contribution…one would think at least that the two would get along personally, in that they are ostensisbly normal blokes amidst a lunatic, a deep eccentric and a constitutionally sensitive artiste…

wait which is which

But Pete has said, as I'm sure that Tarfumes knows, that after awhile it was impossible/frustrating to play with a rhythm section that filled every single available space

I don't doubt this, and Empty Glass is solid proof of that - there's never a moment on that album when I wished Moon was there. But within the confines of this thread's topic, it came up because there are tracks where it feels like it needs something in the drumming department - more power or energy, whatever, and Jones underwhelms. And I think Jones was typically a great drummer - just watch any of the taped performances of him with Faces, and you'll see why he seemed like an appropriate replacement for Moon. He seemed capable of delivering the power needed by the Who without that deceptively chaotic drumming that became so stifling to Townshend. (Though tbh even Moon's drumming was becoming more ordinary and less inventive by the time he died.)

But Pete has said, as I'm sure that Tarfumes knows, that after awhile it was impossible/frustrating to play with a rhythm section that filled every single available space…

I don't recall what Entwistle ever said about Kenney, but I do recall Roger being very dismissive of Kenney's contribution…one would think at least that the two would get along personally, in that they are ostensisbly normal blokes amidst a lunatic, a deep eccentric and a constitutionally sensitive artiste…

birdistheword otm

I don't doubt this, and _Empty Glass_ is solid proof of that - there's never a moment on that album when I wished Moon was there.

Because it hasn't gotten much love in this thread, let me just say that "Daily Records" is a pop delight.

"Roger has frequently stressed that he thought Kenney was a great drummer, just not for the Who"

and yet you will hopefully excuse me for opining that Roger has struck me as artistically hugely conservative (as well as politically) …he cannot seem to countenance life in which the Who is not touring and playing what, the same 30 songs over and over again… in 1978-1979, the music must have needed changing, as a once in a lifetime musician had died… so get a drummer that's completely unlike him and remake the Who…which I suppose is what Pete wanted, although he had one eye on a solo career (which I have mentioned to Tarfumes over the years that I find it frustrating that he never pursued this past 96 or so. to which Tarfumes oddly seems to be indifferent to)…

would Roger have preferred Simon Phillips? Mark Bryzzikcy-wicky? Richie Hayward? Cozy Powell? Ronald Shannon Jackson? Which drummers would have been right for Roger's essentially conservative view of the Who?

Someone else who has seen and heard more of the Jones shows (up to the one supporting Face Dances) should chime in, but I was under the impression those were generally excellent shows? Check out this live recording from 1979 - it was included as a bonus track on the '90s reissue of Face Dances, and I think it's a much better performance than the studio version later recorded for the same album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNQlyji0CuQ

Regardless, re: Daltrey's assessment of Jones, I think they eventually found a better fit in Zak Starkey. It's just a shame that Entwistle died only a few years after Starkey settled in because they truly felt like a revitalized group on-stage.

*up to the tour supporting Face Dances

Roger originally wanted multiple drummers; he wasn't comfortable with the idea of settling on a single drummer. He and Pete both felt that Keith's death gave the Who the opportunity to explore areas they hadn't previously been able to, but Roger wanted different drummers for different things in the studio, while maybe using one drummer for touring. Ultimately, that's what they ended up doing on Endless Wire and WHO (partly out of necessity, as Zak Starkey couldn't get out of his Oasis commitments during Endless Wire).

(which I have mentioned to Tarfumes over the years that I find it frustrating that he never pursued this past 96 or so. to which Tarfumes oddly seems to be indifferent to)…

Have you heard Psychoderelict? After that, I can't say I felt anything like, "Boy, can't wait to hear what he'll come up with next!" He supposedly has tons of unreleased demos (multiple boxed-sets' worth, I'm told), but has no interest in dealing with labels and such...or in releasing it, for that matter. But his solo career never interested me as much more than a blueprint of what the Who might've/could've/should've/shouldn't have done. Which is not to say that I don't love some of his solo records, particularly Who Came First, Rough Mix, Empty Glass, and parts of White City. But The Iron Man was rough going, and Psychoderelict even rougher going, though I admire the batshittery at their core.

If Roger is/was so conservative, I don't think Quadrophenia would've happened, nor much of The Who By Numbers, "Guitar And Pen," or much of Face Dances, for that matter -- is there any precedent for "Did You Steal My Money?" in the Who's oeuvre? The most conservative-sounding Who record to me is It's Hard, which Daltrey hated and said should never have been released. He picks the set lists, though, and does so largely based on a combination of "people came to hear x, so we're gonna give them x," and when he can rest his voice during the show. Sadly, when relative obscurities are trotted out, the audience goes to the can or gets a beer; when I saw them do "A Quick One, While He's Away" in 2015 -- something I never, ever thought I'd hear them play live -- there was a mass exodus for the bathrooms. It didn't last too much longer in their set. I suspect Roger wants more things like that in the set, but has to grapple with the fact that so much of the Who's concert audience knows them from little more than CSI and "classic rock" radio.

(Roger's current politics are fucked, being pro-Brexit and all.)

xxp

Someone else who has seen and heard more of the Jones shows (up to the one supporting Face Dances) should chime in, but I was under the impression those were generally excellent shows?

I've heard a bunch, and yeah, they're generally excellent (anything from their September MSG run -- especially 9/16 -- is highly recommended). And reviews from the time back that up: I don't think they got a single review in 1979 (or even in 1980) that said or implied they shouldn't have carried on without Moon.

Regardless, re: Daltrey's assessment of Jones, I think they eventually found a better fit in Zak Starkey. It's just a shame that Entwistle died only a few years after Starkey settled in because they truly felt like a revitalized group on-stage.

― birdistheword, Tuesday, May 25, 2021 11:47 AM (sixteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, Zak could bring some Moon fireworks, while giving Pete the backbeat he always wanted (and Zak actually came to the Who from Entwistle's solo band). There was a real missed opportunity to make a decent Who record in '96-'02, as they were killing it live.

I have in fact heard Psycho derelict and Iron Man… I have also heard All the Best Cowboys and Empty Glass and wonder why someone who could make rock and roll records as good as, say, Elvis Costello's or Richard Thompson or any number of artists who were sympathetic to new wave/punk at the time, which also had legit AOR hits, and which addressed his concerns as a thinking person, from 1985 through 1993 insisted on releasing records saddled with unwieldy concepts and narratives, etc etc… and in the 2000s, I thought "man, just make a fuckin' record of songs! So you are grateful for the might of the U.S. military? People think you are a kiddie fiddler? What about this Rachel Fuller person? There are some fucking songs for you to write! and you can do it anyway you want, and you don't have to make blood and thunder anthems that Roger thinks is the only thing that will placate the shitty classic rock yahoos that come to your shows…who of course don't fuck with new music from the Who or anyone else…"

but it is true that by now it's too late… I was present for a Who press conference in 2000 in which, just as you say, Tarfumes, Pete said to a a reporter "how do you know I don't have any new music? maybe I do and I don't want you to hear it!

and I'll add you're right that the Ox's 70s tunes solo or on Who records were pretty nifty and compared favorably to a lot of cynical comedy shit at the time, like Zappa for instance, and that he seemed to want to make generic hard rock after, what, Faces Dances? Whereas "The Window Shopper" could be a richard Thompson song, a really good one… unlikely that the Ox ever heard of Richard in any case…

I'm certain he'd have heard of Richard Thompson, can't imagine him listening to him though.

(Roger's current politics are fucked, being pro-Brexit and all.)

Current politics? He's been a Tory forever.

I actually have a lot of affection for "You Better You Bet." The first time I saw the music video, it was on a TV behind the bar of the nearly empty Elks club in Fairbanks, where I'd been stuck for what felt like hours with my cousin and her conservative sociopath hunting guide friend. I can't remember why I was there, I think I was driving them around and the hunting guide insisted on a detour because he was trying to use the Elks to network for his career. When the video came on it felt like the Who had personally shown up to rescue me from the boredom and irritation of listening to the hunting guide trying to schmooze. I wasn't inclined to be picky about the song, and I'm still not.

insisted on releasing records saddled with unwieldy concepts and narratives, etc etc…

I mean, that's what he does, and that's what the Who did. Taking into account all completed outtakes, non-album singles, and b-sides, they could've put out two full albums between Sell Out and Tommy; there's another between Who's Next and Quadrophenia. They also chose not to release a live record in 1972 (parts did get released, scattered over a few records, and it's mindblowing), or put out the de rigueur Double Live in 1976. But no, they had these grand concepts that had to be explored, if not exactly realized, and putting out records because they had enough songs for a record just wasn't how they worked. Hell, even Daltrey said he didn't want them to just put out records for their own sake.

Since I'm not super invested in Pete's solo career, it doesn't bother me that he's not releasing anything, and in a way, I admire it: it's his work, and he can do whatever he wants with it.

ere, I think I was driving them around and the hunting guide insisted on a detour because he was trying to use the Elks to network for his career. When the video came on it felt like the Who had personally shown up to rescue me from the boredom and irritation of listening to the hunting guide trying to schmooze. I wasn't inclined to be picky about the song, and I'm still not.

you feel a little crappy sometimes!

ere, I think I was driving them around and the hunting guide insisted on a detour because he was trying to use the Elks to network for his career. When the video came on it felt like the Who had personally shown up to rescue me from the boredom and irritation of listening to the hunting guide trying to schmooze. I wasn't inclined to be picky about the song, and I'm still not.

LOL I dig it. I think everyone's had that experience where something you normally wouldn't think was that good - a song, a movie, etc. - becomes a f-ing godsend from whatever excruciating experience it's interrupting.

Contemplating a "defend the indefensible: IT'S HARD by The Who" thread, but it's a straight-up B+ album that doesn't need defending unlike this one. Jones' playing sounds strangled to me here compared with 1982.

Blame Bill Szymczyk. Entwistle hated Szymczyk’s production style/techniques, saying it made him self-conscious as a player. I assume Jones felt similarly...likely moreso, given the pressure and expectations.

Jones is definitely looser on It’s Hard, but they cut the whole thing in two weeks.

I’d forgotten about this — Jones’ recorded debut with the Who was on the 1979 Quadrophenia soundtrack (the other track he plays on, “Get Out and Stay Out,” is little more than a sketch, though it works decently in the film). This song dates from ‘67, but the Who didn’t record it then, and Pete’s demo has yet to surface.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwW_L9pb6aU