the alt-right

And we do have freedoms here they lack elsewhere - just this week England banned some neo-Nazi group, which is why it was fore in mind - but I'm not sure how being legally allowed to march with a Nazi flag makes our freedoms any better, which was partly my question.

in theory the idea is that if you have the power to ban A there's a slippery slope that gives you the power to ban B or C which are things that maybe we don't want banned. in practice maybe it's not crazy to say that everything should be legal unless there's a specifically good case to ban it. which is why i've never found holocaust denial laws in places like germany particularly unreasonable - it's not like it's confusing why they've banned the topic, even tho as an american i want to be a free speech radical it's not like the historical circumstances of ww2 germany are therefore going to lead them to ban moon landing denial or whatever. tho even then i mean what if they're like "and bc of our history w/ communism we're banning soviet paraphernalia too." and where do the lines of either of these get drawn - i mean maybe you should be allowed to call for fascism as a system of government as long as you don't link it to the aesthetics of the Nazi party, and similarly for Communism (in this theoretical regime) as long as you're not specifically name-checking Stalin. there are just so many problems that maybe the US is right and it's best to just make it all legal.

tho of course it's not all legal here either cf fires in theaters, fighting words, incitement to violence etc

fwiw I think the neo-Nazi group banned this week was banned due to incitement to violence.

our freedoms are pretty idiosyncratic in the US and i assume the product of our unique circumstances. speech + religion are radically free both bc of our bill of rights but also bc they were the premise upon which emigration from England was justified. guns are radically free bc we were a colonial settler society and you need guns when you're living on the frontier, and again bc the circumstances of the birth of our country which involved an armed revolt against the monarchy. otoh the founders of this country were looking for religious freedom bc they were pretty religious which is why our abortion laws and drinking laws etc are so fucked up. (obv this is more complicated and there's legacies of stuff like prohibition which wasn't exclusively about religion.)

It's worth bearing in mind that National Action was proscribed as a terrorist organisation, rather than simply being 'banned', that they provide combat training and that they have been linked to at least one murder.

The laws on walking down the street with a Nazi flag are fairly complex and, to some extent, arbitrary. The far right does stage protests, and is allowed to do so, but can be stopped from, for example, organising marches in Jewish areas. They would also be subject to general and very broad 'public order' laws designed to stop people causing alarm and harassment.

xps

we famously allowed a group of neo-nazis to stage a march through an area w/ a lot of survivors just to demonstrate how committed we were to the ideal

Mordy iirc and i can't be arsed to do the research right now but firearms were equally free in the UK before and after the War of Independence, i seem to remember UK firearms controls coming late in the 19th century tho i could be wrong datewise

hey SV Spiked says National Action isn't a terrorist organization so i don't know man

pretty sure you'll go to jail in germany for walking down the street in nazi regalia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a
You can't display a Daesh flag, either.

Ben Shapiro was on Dave Rubin's show and said Yiannopoulos chickened out of a debate with him. Also that Yiannopoulos believes all taboos should be broken to fix everything, so Shapiro asked Rubin to dare Yiannopoulos to say the N-word on his show. Rubin said he would do that but I'd be surprised if he did.

http://www.ligotti.net/showthread.php?t=11453

The response to me posting that article.

he seems pretty bright - you should invite him to post on ilx. we could use some ideological diversity.

He also called Ibrahim R Ineke (a comic artist I'm friends with) less than an ant or a fish because he's a Muslim. Advocated bombing muslims and he's into "racial realism"

He seems to identify as Persian - am I misreading him?

I asked him now but I have no idea if he'd go for it. He does identify as Persian and he's not white.

ppl who identify as 'persian' include some of the world's most committed racial supremacists. they claim to be the 'master race', the 'original western race' etc

lol @ mordy's first post there

Yeah it's where the term aryan comes from but I wonder bout his tiepoih
S b
B
B

Religious beliefs

It's strange, two years ago he was obsessed with eastern mysticism and now, all that stuff on the thread I linked.

He said he's not joining here, he's started his anti-Islam stuff against Ibrahim and the thread will doubtless be deleted within a day. I'm amazed he hasn't been banned yet.

Yeah it's where the term aryan comes from but I wonder bout his tiepoih
S b
B
B

I wonder bout his tiepoih
S b
B
B
too

ha i wonder if it's better to leave that as is without explanation & allow u to fill it w/ yr own esoteric meaning or admit that i was composing it on Zing in the rain while trying to get my recalcitrant daughter into her carseat and that was the result

def thought 'tiepoih' was a cool hebrew concept. the rest is just suggest ban, baby

Kids, eh?

better than pets amirite

more like the alt-shite

The heck is that messageboard

It's the Thomas Ligotti forum. Ligotti is one of the biggest figures in modern weird/horror fiction and he got a book in penguin classics recently. He's probably the most famous anti-natalist and he's big on pessimism too. We discuss all that and lots of related stuff. The Persian guy (or a moderator) deleted most of his posts in the thread, so it makes no sense now.

Nick Land is also into all that stuff I think. I think those guys are few and far between but nihilist posturing often goes together with fascistic ideas.

Is N1ck L4nd famous for something other than being NRx/fascist?

I think he takes some stuff from Lovecraft and Ligotti.

Phil Sandifer written a thing tying a lot of this stuff together
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2027287602/neoreaction-a-basilisk

whenever I read something written by/about Land, I think of this comment left by an old collegue of his on Simon Reynolds' blog (under an profile of Land and the ccru that Reynolds wrote in 1999):

One of the last times I saw Nick was in the Coop on Earlsdon high street; in his basket were about six Pot Noodles, and a cabbage ("because I don't want to get scurvy").

http://energyflashbysimonreynolds.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/renegade-academia-cybernetic-culture.html

I bought that Ligotti Penguin book and couldn't make it through half the stories. I'm a big Lovecraft fan, but Ligotti lives deep up his own ass, as far as prose style goes.

I never cared for him, either, but he seemed to be big with the Current 93/DiJ/neofolk people, who've never had any weird or unsavory political connections.

That's true but Ligotti doesn't have anything approaching fascist views himself.

maybe not but the failure of contemporary "pessimist" philosophical voices to address the fascist implications of their conclusions makes their work markedly inferior to that of cioran.

The only remaining anti-humanist ideology is fascism. Of all existing political movements, only a fascist would dare to express the belief that "no lives matter".

Anti-natalism is about reducing suffering til there is none left. But these people carry no expectation that it's likely to happen. No reason pessimism can't be compassionate.

oh, it's certainly possible to be antinatalist and _not_ be fascist. much antinatalism is apolitical, as politics is inherently a human enterprise. at the same time, antinatalism is a form of nihilism, and nihilism is more closely allied with fascism than it is with any other political form. there's a reason there's so much more nsbm than there is rabm.

Unlike anarchy, communism just isn't considered that cool unless you turn it into the ridiculous fascist supervillain thing. And anarchy is only considered cool when it's about chaos and irresponsibility.

It's not easy linking exciting metal imagery with responsible politics.

I think you're selling metalheads short to say that their ideology is based, first and foremost, around "coolness". I would argue that there is a genuine disconnect of values between the essentially pessimist philosophy adopted by metal at large and an economic/political belief system based around the worth and dignity of the working class, and that disconnect can be very clearly heard by attempting to listen to RABM bands.

If someone holds a belief system that assigns human life negative value, as many antinatalists do, they are going to face a strong temptation to implement those beliefs in a political sense. And prescriptive antinatalism is genocide.

always surprising that more antinatalists and misanthropes don't do something about the one part of the accounts sheet they do have a moral right over

Rushomancy- Fair enough about the first part, who are the best RABM bands?

Don't know about the second part. The anti-natalists I'm familiar with probably wouldn't find that attractive and don't have the energy to get that involved in politics.

I'd want to separate anti-natalism from nihilism. While anti-natalism does assign a negative value to human life, that's compatible with assigning a positive value to human beings. Anti-natalism can proceed from a demand for human wellbeing which the world isn't equipped to satisfy. It values human beings enough not to want to inflict a painful and compromised life on them.

Anyway, it seems to me that the big fascist movements have historically been highly optimistic, not pessimistic - but optimistic towards a perverse set of goals.

Rushomancy- Fair enough about the first part, who are the best RABM bands?

― Robert Adam Gilmour

i honestly don't think terms like "best" apply to rabm. here's the list of rabm bands i went through:

https://rateyourmusic.com/list/WeirdoYYY/the_essential_rabm__red_and_anarchist_black_metal_/

"always surprising that more antinatalists and misanthropes don't do something about the one part of the accounts sheet they do have a moral right over

― Rock Wokeman (Noodle Vague)"

i suppose it is surprising if you haven't actually read any antinatalist thought. cioran for instance spends a great deal of his writing talking about the deferral of suicide. it wouldn't be correct to say he was "anti-suicide", as he fully intended to kill himself after the alzheimer's diagnosis hit, but the illness progressed too fast.

"I'd want to separate anti-natalism from nihilism. While anti-natalism does assign a negative value to human life, that's compatible with assigning a positive value to human beings. Anti-natalism can proceed from a demand for human wellbeing which the world isn't equipped to satisfy. It values human beings enough not to want to inflict a painful and compromised life on them.

Anyway, it seems to me that the big fascist movements have historically been highly optimistic, not pessimistic - but optimistic towards a perverse set of goals.

― jmm"

i would agree about differentiating antinatalism from nihilism, but an essential part, i would argue, of philosophical antinatalism (as opposed to practical antinatalism, which is far more widespread and less overtly acknowledged) is that human beings fundamentally lack the capacity to create a world which can give human life positive value - that the negative value to human life is not a temporary, but an intrinsic condition. this philosophy is difficult to differentiate from nihilism.

fascism absolutely presents as an optimistic movement, but fascism, ideologically, is built on lies as well as on perversity. for the true believers, fascism is built on annihilation.

Why would antinatalism have anything to do with fascism?

Fascists view lives instrumentally -- that is the nature of their antihumanism. Antinatalists are the opposite of that. They look at the individual's quality of life as an indicator of its worthiness. Their position also usually doesn't involve imposing their views on others iirc. They dont tend to advocate forced sterilization

I am weakly antinatalist in that I think it's bad to be alive and I don't want to bring anyone into existence but I don't have like a political program attached to that

Had a look at that RABM list and although I'm sure most of them are nice guys I get the feeling some are probably Stalin worshippers and racist too.

can it be mere coincidence that antinatalist is an anagram of attain stalin?