s/b tangerine pimpernel imo
― mark s, Thursday, 9 March 2017 15:59 (seven years ago) link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Graham_(loyalist)
i'm blaming you deems, for the fact i just spent 10 mins googling variants of "why was john graham called bunter"
― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Thursday, 9 March 2017 16:02 (seven years ago) link
They seek him here, they seek him there, so they do.
― Return of the Flustered Bootle Native (Tom D.), Thursday, 9 March 2017 16:06 (seven years ago) link
not sure if anyone's looking for books about all this -- rather than wikipedia paragraphs -- but one place to start is eamon collins's "killing rage", written by an ira assassin-turned-informer a couple of years before he was found beaten to death
it's the opposite of loyalist (in every sense) but it gives you a bleak glimpse of who'd been high-ranking and respected and effective within an org, and why it turned on him and he turned against it (reasons less the ones he gives out loud than screaming from the subtext of every other sentence)
― mark s, Thursday, 9 March 2017 16:17 (seven years ago) link
this thread is genuinely making me want to record some of these as children's bedtime stories.
― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Thursday, 9 March 2017 16:25 (seven years ago) link
Struwwelpeter or the Shankhill Butchers, fingers are going to be chopped off either way.
― Return of the Flustered Bootle Native (Tom D.), Thursday, 9 March 2017 16:29 (seven years ago) link
gusty spence is an interesting one, one of the first members and prominent leader of the newfangled uvf, committed some sectarian murders - the just shoot some taig looking fella outside a bar on the falls type if i remember - renounced violence in jail and was pushing for a political end to the conflict from the maze, basically having a more progressive and conciliatory outlook towards the nationalist community than most mainstream unionist politicians of the time
― Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 9 March 2017 17:11 (seven years ago) link
then david ervine, basically a very sound seeming bloke with good left-wing politics
a fairly reasonable guy if you ignore the whole bombing nationalist civilians part
― Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 9 March 2017 17:14 (seven years ago) link
my favourite story though, that illustrates the monstrosity of loyalism, is long kesh being closed and in the republican wings what's left over is literature and books on the irish language, history, political theory. the loyalist wing's reading material consists primarily of body-building magazines.
― Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 9 March 2017 17:16 (seven years ago) link
I'm glad it stopped. I still don't understand why it is that it stopped. Most places violence just doesn't end. Ever.
― increasingly bonkers (rushomancy), Thursday, 9 March 2017 17:17 (seven years ago) link
the david ervine part of this book is good reading, he's about as sympathetic as a loyalist bomber can be, though he is circumspect about his crimes, basically not admitting to anything other than the crime he was convicted for - he was caught by police driving a car with a bomb in it. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Voices-Grave-Two-Mens-Ireland/dp/0571251692
― Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 9 March 2017 17:20 (seven years ago) link
There's very interesting people on both sides, absolutely, I'm kind of focusing on the wyrd side of the loyalist divide here. I've half a theory that their religious, professional, communal, historic or whatever outlook tended to push them down less identikit paths than the republican terrorists template.
What Jim says there might make sense in that light. Paddys in for several, but the liturgy of the cause is present in the bloc because there's a coherent somewhat shared ideology based not only on Catholicism ( which we can presume to be prone to more uniformity of form and product than the various protestantisms across the province?) but in the broad trend of extreme left politics besides, and if not quite agreement in that latter then certainly a shared belief in the fervency with which one should properly engage in a politic.
Loyalists idk they're just lads swung a hammer, kept tidier farms and liked to shoot paddies. Book clubs aren't really in it.
― The Perks of Being a Wall St R (darraghmac), Thursday, 9 March 2017 18:02 (seven years ago) link
This lad frinstance, obv wanted a religion regardless of whatever religion it was, but that need for creed doesn't seem tied in to his desire for buggery of minors or his sectarian hatred
Whereas yknow with yr Catholic nationalist it's all in a package.
John McKeagueJohn McKeague.pngMcKeague in a BBC interview in 1976Born John Dunlop McKeague1930Bushmills, County AntrimDied 29 January 1982Albertbridge Road, BelfastCause of death Gunshot woundsNationality BritishOccupation ShopkeeperNotable work Loyalist Song BookHome town BelfastTitle Leader of the Red Hand Commando
Chris Moore, in his investigation into the Kincora scandal, insists that McKeague was never a member of Tara but that he and McGrath had met to discuss trading weapons between their two groups and that following these meetings McKeague had become a regular visitor to Kincora, where he was involved in several rapes of underage boys living at the home.[13] Although making no comment on his membership or otherwise of the group Jim Cusack and Henry McDonald insist that McKeague shared the far right conspiratorial views advanced by McGrath and UPV leader Noel Doherty.
― The Perks of Being a Wall St R (darraghmac), Thursday, 9 March 2017 18:06 (seven years ago) link
couple interesting mid-80s essays by -- i know i know hear me out -- tom paulin, on paisley and the DUP as a political movement with roots in (as TP argues it) the puritan revolt during the english civil war, paisley's reading list put together mainly at bob jones university maybe, but echoes stuff you find in bunyan etc
it's collected in "writing to the moment" which is a fvck awful title, tom, no wonder i'm the only one who bought and read it
― mark s, Thursday, 9 March 2017 18:12 (seven years ago) link
http://www.booksinstore.uk/shop_image/product/004118.jpg
― Return of the Flustered Bootle Native (Tom D.), Thursday, 9 March 2017 18:14 (seven years ago) link
this does sound legit interesting
― Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 9 March 2017 18:25 (seven years ago) link
is there a consensus best or most comprehensive book about the post-bloody sunday era of "the troubles"?
btw my brother was in Ireland on an internship program at the same time as the Omagh bombing. One of the victims (a 12 yr old boy) shared his full name. i am pretty certain there was never any panic about that particular bit (he was in Dublin.)
separate from that i remember my brother saying it was the darkest moment he'd ever felt a part of, just being in Ireland at the time.
― nomar, Thursday, 9 March 2017 18:40 (seven years ago) link
― mark s, Thursday, 9 March 2017 18:12 (twenty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Calvinism foundations and all that alright, and presbyterianism as prevalent throughout the north is surely only the Scottish variant but Paisley's lads are just fundamental baptist or whatever of the type celebrated in the Fred Phelps threads
― The Perks of Being a Wall St R (darraghmac), Thursday, 9 March 2017 18:45 (seven years ago) link
I'd read more into this stuff, it appeals and repels on a number of interesting levels, but I mean it's hard to find the time when the wikispiral just never ends.
― The Perks of Being a Wall St R (darraghmac), Thursday, 9 March 2017 18:46 (seven years ago) link
i went through a crazy period of reading about the troubles like a man possessed but i never read enough about the loyalists, feels like something i'll definitely come back to at some stage.
― Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 9 March 2017 18:51 (seven years ago) link
Yeah it's more than just the local interest there's definitely something there I'd like to see well investigated
― The Perks of Being a Wall St R (darraghmac), Thursday, 9 March 2017 18:53 (seven years ago) link
my prob blase southern view is that ulster unionists were/are a bunch that's fairly retrograde. i realise that's versus ira or whatever at the extremes, but it often felt like some of the worst people in europe were these bible basher racial hatred types. that said i've met many people from the north born in one religion or the other, and over the years they didn't care or weren't brought up in a way that gave them any major anger.
ultimately tho, i don't see deep racial hatred even in an org like sinn fein. nor homophobia, etc.
― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Friday, 10 March 2017 00:29 (seven years ago) link
i've also been wanting to read more about 'the troubles' but jeez it's hard to sift through it all -- any thoughts on "Making Sense of the Troubles"? the copy i've got is already been updated and i feel like a sucker
― jason waterfalls (gbx), Friday, 10 March 2017 00:41 (seven years ago) link
it was a hard time to sift through for both sides
― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Friday, 10 March 2017 00:43 (seven years ago) link
SIFT were a particularly nasty bunch of breakouts from the 1972 conference iirc, led away after refusing to recognise the legitimacy of a vote on mustache be full beard for the modern provo
― brat_stuntin (darraghmac), Friday, 10 March 2017 00:58 (seven years ago) link
I can't recommend any of these yet gbx cos I only looked it up earlier but...
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/feb/22/bestbooks.politics
― brat_stuntin (darraghmac), Friday, 10 March 2017 01:00 (seven years ago) link
Tim Pat Coogans "The Troubles" is very good too
― Yoni Loves Chocha (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 10 March 2017 01:08 (seven years ago) link
Coogan is faultless, thorough and relatively impartial that I can tell by Jesus he is a chore to read
One of our fallen heroes late of the parish has brought my attn to the following:
https://www.amazon.com/Longest-War-Northern-Irelands-Troubled/dp/0192802925
― brat_stuntin (darraghmac), Friday, 10 March 2017 01:17 (seven years ago) link
thanks guys
― jason waterfalls (gbx), Friday, 10 March 2017 02:58 (seven years ago) link
xpost - lol @ that Amazon reviewer 'how can anyone have a book about Northern Ireland without photos' idk my feeling is anyone who lived through any of that should be pretty right for photos for the rest of their lives basically just saying
― Yoni Loves Chocha (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 10 March 2017 03:48 (seven years ago) link
i'm like twenty minutes into the first episode of peter taylor's documentary series on the loyalists and jfc paisley is such a sleazeball
― jason waterfalls (gbx), Friday, 10 March 2017 04:03 (seven years ago) link
That Peter Taylor series is a great primer on the troubles. The books are actually not that great iirc, in that they don't expand sufficiently on the docs.
― Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Friday, 10 March 2017 06:15 (seven years ago) link
paisley = hall of fame for alltime punchable twats
― Yoni Loves Chocha (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 10 March 2017 06:29 (seven years ago) link
reread the paulin-paisley essay last night: it's really good -- a deep dive into the rhetorical structure and intellectual (which are also anti-intellectual) roots of paisleyism, why/how it emerged when it did and why it was so effective (it's not *simply* bible-bashing clannishness)
the strongest stuff is maybe about the class roots of the DUP's relentless war since the 60s on official unionism (the "tyrant o'neill")
paulin is a protestant republican himself, iirc, and he's trolling a *bit* perhaps by fashioning more of a coherence than is there -- he notes several contradictory elements but deftly uses the noting to "save his theory", which is fair enough in the context of explaining rhetorical force... the force is real and the contradictions evidently don't diminish it, so don't treat them as points of weakness, bcz they're not
cf freud on the kettle joke (CW: jeet heer at this link; also trump's face)
― mark s, Friday, 10 March 2017 11:10 (seven years ago) link
point here not so much that paisley is like trump -- there are similarities but also important differences -- but that "kettle logic" is very effective in a particular kind of class insurgency, which the Troubles were
(tbh paulin's semi-trollish argument that the deep perhaps inadvertant logic of paisleyism and the DUP is actually ultimately also (ie like irish nationalism) a species of separatism, despite itself, probably slightly reflects his own politics and wishful thinking a wee a bit too much… he's goading paisleyites here, but he's not wrong that there's a deep ambivalence in the DUP abt the nature of their britishness)
sorry this doesn't really belong on a thread abt the IRA tho, does it?
― mark s, Friday, 10 March 2017 11:24 (seven years ago) link
No I think it's a good angle, thanks for bringing it in
Anyway, fault will be mind for rebooting thread purely to marvel at the unionistas
That said, tisnt the first time they done it on us wha
― brat_stuntin (darraghmac), Friday, 10 March 2017 12:00 (seven years ago) link
he's not wrong that there's a deep ambivalence in the DUP abt the nature of their britishness
That's no understatement.
― Return of the Flustered Bootle Native (Tom D.), Friday, 10 March 2017 12:35 (seven years ago) link
by not-entirely-odd coincidence: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2017/03/ian-paisley-jr-northern-irish-aelection-dup-were-caught-napping
― mark s, Friday, 10 March 2017 15:38 (seven years ago) link
― Return of the Flustered Bootle Native (Tom D.), Friday, March 10, 2017 4:35 AM (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
this idea is often expressed and, i think, holds a lot of water.
having a google to find someone saying it better than i can and came across this:
The bilateral nature of Unionist British national identity, based on a contractual attitude to the state, is associated with the phenomenon of negative nationalism. Such identity is as much as symbol of Unionist resistance to Irish reunification as its s of any sense of belong to a UK 'collective conscience'. In this respect, Unionist adherence to a British national identity is an act of defiance, rather than a positive assertion of British nationalist sentiment. 'The Ulster state came into being solely because of the opposition of Northern Protestants to Irish unification: negative nationalism had its way'. Unionism, and especially its more fundamentalist brand, is loyal unto itself first. This is the real significance of the label of Loyalism. According to the Northern Ireland Attitude Survey of 1978, 85 per cent of respondents deemed that a 'loyalist is loyal to Ulster before the British Government'.
The highly symbolic nature of the Unionists' Britishness and their conditional loyalism and negative nationalism, present a paradox. Is it that the Unionist community is not British at all? Or is it that it is the most British part of the UK? Certainly Union Jack waving, noisy loyalty to Crown and fundamentalist Protestant faith, all tend to set Ireland apart from the rest of the UK. Nowhere else (sic) on the mainland of Britain are these traditional symbols of Britishness so visibly and audibly proclaimed.
― Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Friday, 10 March 2017 17:28 (seven years ago) link
I think Brighton has the union jacks and a few others that might not be mentioned there
― brat_stuntin (darraghmac), Friday, 10 March 2017 17:43 (seven years ago) link
the piece also goes on to talk about hartzian fragment theory. the idea that colonial settler societies that break off from european society do not continue to develop along the lines of the mother society. So Hartz thought Latin America a fragment of feudal Europe, the United States and Canada a fragment of Europe in the age of liberalism. So perhaps Ulster is a Hartzian fragment and this explains the archaic elements of Ulster Unionism.
― Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Friday, 10 March 2017 17:55 (seven years ago) link
15 yrs late but puzzled by:
I lost two friends when the IRA bombed Manchester. I lost two friends when the WTC was destroyed. I don't like terrorism no matter what.
― Paul Strange, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (fifteen years ago)
There were no fatalities in the 96 Manchester bombing. Is he referring to a different one?
― NI, Sunday, 12 March 2017 16:49 (seven years ago) link
fwiw he was apparently lying about losing friends on 9/11 so he was probably lying about the Manchester one as well.
― Colonel Poo, Sunday, 12 March 2017 16:59 (seven years ago) link
Then he changed his name to Nuttall?
― Odysseus, Sunday, 12 March 2017 17:03 (seven years ago) link
Ha, years-old scandal unearthed. Was he the twee record label guy?
― NI, Sunday, 12 March 2017 17:27 (seven years ago) link
more talking about loyalism
http://www.secondcaptains.com/2017/03/10/episode-801-peter-geoghegan-future-unionism-price-loyalty/
― Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Monday, 13 March 2017 22:45 (seven years ago) link
(subscription podcast link)
― Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Monday, 13 March 2017 22:52 (seven years ago) link
Since the ceasefire, the UVF has been involved in rioting, organised crime, vigilantism and feuds with other loyalist groups.[11] Some members have also been found responsible for orchestrating a series of racist attacks.
And we're back
― brat_stuntin (darraghmac), Monday, 13 March 2017 23:10 (seven years ago) link
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_McClinton
My good god
― brat_stuntin (darraghmac), Monday, 13 March 2017 23:58 (seven years ago) link
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Wallace
― virginity simple (darraghmac), Monday, 24 April 2017 23:19 (seven years ago) link