Trump, June 2017: From [Covfefe] with Love

A devil's advocate would argue ACA repeal is a prologue to Medicare for all. Terrible for those who get injured/sick from '19 to '22, but ultimately good.

Rejecting the Paris Accords may mean an international consensus with teeth. Universal carbon tariffs on nations who aren't meeting goals set by outside authorities. A better path, going forward.

At present, what's really at danger is American leadership of the free world. America didn't lead through fear, but shared values, and in 2016 it clearly demonstrated its internal political games trump values. That admirational/aspirational acceptance of one nation's leadership didn't come cheaply, and American voters threw it away with little thought, so some could have a tantrum.

the way the travel ban has literally been stopped.

it's not in the SC yet, where it will be upheld 5-4 IMO

re: Russia scandal - tbf the opinions of the electorate don't really matter, it's the opinions of people in Congress and the courts that matter

xp

Sanpaku otm

it's not in the SC yet, where it will be upheld 5-4 IMO

idk about this, we will see

by the time they rule the thing will have expired anyway

That admirational/aspirational acceptance of one nation's leadership didn't come cheaply, and American voters threw it away with little thought, so some could have a tantrum.

I wouldn't get too carried away with that admirational/aspirational thing.

No, or you could equally make the argument that if it could survive Iraq, Afghanistan and Kyoto, it can survive Paris.

America didn't lead through fear, but shared values

Yeah, this is way off.

I'm cool with some other country leading the free world tbh, America is a shitshow

I just got an email suggesting that if the US is withdrawing from Paris Accord others may follow. Would be the big worry right now, wouldn't it?

idk if other countries wanna follow the US's example right now

not gonna happen

Been thinking that America under trump has a lot of nerve thinking it's in any position to police the world.

So hope the idea that nobody wants to follow its lead is prevalent.

the biggest economies - China, India, Europe, etc. - are gonna stay in, they smell money.

Also I'm pretty sure if UK got woke and repealed Brexit the EU would welcome us back like the undeserving shitheel prodigal sons we are

― Who's puttin' sponge in the zings I once zung (stevie), Thursday, June 1, 2017 8:29 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Without a shadow of a doubt. But admitting a mistake or u-turning on something is seen as the biggest crime a politician can make. So: so not gonna happen.

I wouldn't get too carried away with that admirational/aspirational thing.

I realize "beacon on the hill" is self-serving rhetoric, but I'm pretty sure the world would be a darker place had the Axis or USSR won. Elites around the world wanted to live in liberal democracies, because they were educated in the US (or UK). Globally, things got better, and global trade flourished, but the pace of change was perhaps too fast for the industrial and agricultural belts in the US. More should have been done to moderate the pace, provide safety nets, and ensure that all the benefits didn't flow to those directing capital flows.

I just got an email suggesting that if the US is withdrawing from Paris Accord others may follow. Would be the big worry right now, wouldn't it?

― Stevolende, Thursday, June 1, 2017 8:39 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Find that hard to believe. Trump basically gave China a golden opportunity, on a silver platter, to join the 'sensible' nations and say: 'we aren't following this nation in decline with an idiot for prez but instead are joining the ranks of nations who want to do good'. And they would be otm.

Without a shadow of a doubt. But admitting a mistake or u-turning on something is seen as the biggest crime a politician can make. So: so not gonna happen.

― Le Bateau Ivre, Thursday, June 1, 2017 9:41 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think if business wants it enough or the pain of it happening is so great it will kill the party responsible, a way of u-turning without admitting the mistake and taking credit for it somehow might be thrown together. /wishful thinking

brexit/Trump have, I sense, given the rest of the world a sense that the UK/Us are kind of sick and messed up places at the moment and no one really wants to follow their lead as brexit/trump both seem pretty catastrophic mistakes, both morally and financially

yup

Well yeah with you there (though also on the /wishfulthinking part). It killing the party (parties) responsible would be a dream come true but that's just too much to wish for tbh.

xp

re Watergate

I'm talking in terms of the electorate themselves

Nixon's craven sliminess, particularly once the tapes came out, was no longer deniable to anyone but the zealots. Woody Allen once said, "In my (early '50s) high school, everyone knew Nixon was a crook."

As the maxim goes, it was the coverup, not the initial crimes.

Alfred is correct, there's no Dem majorities and no responsible wing of the GOP.

Worth mentioning that the "only the US, Nicaragua and Syria aren't part of the Paris Accord" is off base because Nicaragua didn't sign because they thought the accord didn't go far enough - they're apparently on track to be 90 percent renewable energy by 2020. So it's really just Trump and Assad.

Nixon had had to try to explain having accepted the dog Checkers back in 52 way before he got the Presidency. So why did he get the presidency. I need to read that bio I got of him a couple of months back.

brexit/Trump have, I sense, given the rest of the world a sense that the UK/Us are kind of sick and messed up places at the moment and no one really wants to follow their lead as brexit/trump both seem pretty catastrophic mistakes, both morally and financially

― Who's puttin' sponge in the zings I once zung (stevie), Thursday, June 1, 2017 8:46 PM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is really otm imho. Seeing how enemies Merkel and Schulz are battling it out in the German elections, yet Schulz actually sticking up for Merkel becz Trump gave her and Germany shit... It is quite something. I don't think there are more than five countries in the world right now who'd point to the UK/US and say: "Yes, this path is something we should embrace and follow."

Same with China following suit on the accords now, which I think is a very good thing for the climate, but politically they just had to tap in the ball into an open goal: Trump makes a fool of the US, so very very easy for China to gain at least some standing, in other words: profit. They profit from Trump's stupidity. A lot of nations and politicians, for better or worse, will try to do this.

"A warm-up band introduced Trump by playing the George Gershwin classic 'Summertime'."

turnin' up the heat

re: global American hegemony/leadership - the jig was pretty much up after the Iraq War, this is just the nail in the coffin. We may be the only country that can globally project military power, but that counts for less and less these days.

http://i.imgur.com/JXkE7pD.jpg

lol

Clinton blames her data team for election loss. Data team leader tweets (see images), then, mysteriously, deleted them. pic.twitter.com/NFE1QvdIcx

— Jacob Matthew Dix (@Jacob606) June 1, 2017

So yeah, some of the finer points of detail re: Flynn or Sessions are new, and the Comey twist is new, but there was enough to go on before the election. People. Do. Not. Give. A. Shit.

The Flynn, Comey and Sessions news that have come out in the last month are bombshells! Not fine details imho. And more importantly: he's in office now and liable for things like obstruction of justice (or, in the court of public opinion, the appearance of it). At the risk of being Pollyanna-ish, I think it matters that he so obviously fumbles all denials and everyone in his administration looks and acts like they're carrying out a sloppy and incompetent coverup.

But as for "people" not caring, Trump's approval numbers make clear that something has worn him down from his already unprecedentedly bad numbers. Maybe it's not the investigations at all; it seems likely that the healthcare debacle was damaging with the general public, and more generally maybe it's the failure to do everything he promised. But this is all related! The fact that his White House is under constant investigation and he sucks at making that go away damages these efforts. That might not be the same as people "giving a shit" about Mike Flynn directly, but I'll take it.

As the Mayor of Pittsburgh, I can assure you that we will follow the guidelines of the Paris Agreement for our people, our economy & future. https://t.co/3znXGTcd8C

— bill peduto (@billpeduto) June 1, 2017

Where Pittsburgh goes, so goes the world.

I still can't get over how incoherent that speech was. If you didn't know what he was talking about you'd think US signed an agreement to literally deliver billions of dollars to Paris. Then he talks about making a climate deal with the Democrats (!??). So much stupidity to unpack.

Nixon's craven sliminess, particularly once the tapes came out, was no longer deniable to anyone but the zealots.

Are there more zealots now? Because Russia, etc, aside - if it is a thing, and I know it was 'out there' before the election, but it seems much more vivid with each passing day - audio evidence of Trump's crave sliminess compelled thousands to revel in the whole deplorable thing.

It was no https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51oKpntKtOL._SY346_.jpg or https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51YUpRjmRHL._SY346_.jpg.

xpost to Dr. C, but do his approval numbers mean anything at all? He could have 0% approval and be just as destructive until congress stands up to him en masse. And there are still plenty of people in congress who are waaaaaay more than mere supporters, people like Nunes or Gomer Pyle or whomever, who are actively acting on behalf of the admin.

Like I said, let's see how things go in 2018, let alone 2020. If things don't go Dem, then no, no one gives a shit. Not really.

BREAKING: France, Germany, Italy issue joint statement saying Paris climate accord can't be renegotiated.

— The Associated Press (@AP) June 1, 2017

This can only mean one thing: US declares War on Europe!

Deafening silence from the UK I note.

compelled thousands to revel in the whole deplorable thing.

just the other evening i was having a drink at a local happy hour and this nice looking senior citizen was waiting for her friend to arrive so she can present her with the Adorable Deplorable matching bracelets she got. UGH i wanted to punch those old bitches after about 3 mins

Dead soon enough. Or hey, at this rate, maybe even sooner!

Has anyone yet proposed a march on Washington culminating in collective vomiting? Like, through the fence onto WH lawn?

The Petudo tweet is a good reminder there is lots of UN (and, oddly, Vatican) stuff on sustainability, global warming and urbanisation working directly with mayors and bypassing national governments. Hopefully cities across the US will be falling over themselves to fill the void of moral leadership.

I'm pretty conscious that my shock at the whole 'deplorable' thing is in itself a symptom of my own white privilege, that it shocks me that people would so unashamedly revel in their racism and homophobia and so on.

My favourite part:

"As someone who cares deeply about the environment, which I do, I cannot, in good conscience, support a deal that punishes the United States: the world's leader in environmental protection."

"The United States, under the Trump administration, will continue to be the cleanest and most environmentally friendly country on earth, we're gonna be the cleanest, we're gonna have the cleanest air, we're gonna have the cleanest water."

"but do his approval numbers mean anything at all?"

You brought up people "not giving a shit" and I tried to find some metric of measuring how much of a shit people might possibly give...? Also FYI the country is brutally gerrymandered and suffering from growing voter suppression efforts by the Republicans so I don't think the 2018 results really present a final determination on whether "people give a shit."

But if you want to get into whether approval numbers "mean anything" in the sense of "mattering," I would say, yes, they do. A President that is massively popular has an easier time accomplishing things in Congress than a President that is massively unpopular. As I've rambled about before on these threads, when the President is constantly screwing up and walking into scandals and clumsily defending himself against really serious charges, it gets harder to get a legislative agenda - there are only so many hours in a day and they're going to the wrong things. It was purple-district Republicans, plus a solid blue wall, that killed Trumpcare 1.0 a couple months ago - so for whatever you do next, you need to win some of them over, convince them that voting for this thing won't kill them with their constituents back home. If you're massively popular, that's easy - they run on "I stood with the massively popular president." If you're massively unpopular, it's going to need more work because they're thinking "my god, these town halls are eating me alive, everybody was already fuming about your awful health care plan and now there's a viral video of me getting sonned hardcore by a senior citizen demanding a Russia investigation." There's going to need to be a lot of meetings with these legislators. You and your staff are going to have to dedicate lunches to wheedling, arm-twisting, deal-cutting, wearing down their doubts, pointing to your internal research that suggests the legislation is actually more popular than it seems, whatever.

But oops, now all your time is spent meeting with lawyers and hunkering down with the inner circle of mutual paranoia, ranting about leakers and enemies in the press. While you do that, your more competent staff are devoting what should be arm-twisting time to coming up with today's cover story for yesterday's awful revelation, and trying to propagate it to your surrogates to use on TV. Said surrogates, including the congresspeople who are unreservedly for the bill, are devoting their TV airtime to defending the massively unpopular, scandal-ridden President, and they're doing it badly because a) it's pretty indefensible and b) your dysfunctional White House can't even devote itself to the spin-doctoring of your competent staff because you tweeted out a totally different story twenty minutes ago.

Obviously there are still lots of awful things he can do (will do, is doing) but American legislative politics don't just run on autopilot in between elections... the things that happen and the popularity of politicians matter as the story unfolds.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBQtw8DWAAA4ptb.jpg

macron just addressed france and said we must "make the planet great again" (lolz?)