A Paler Shade of White---Sasha Frere-Jones Podcast and New Yorker article Criticizing Indie Rock for Failing to Incorporate African-American Influences

yeah they'd get it from some dude with a creepy moustache and aviator shades probably

http://www.kuyichi.com/kuyichi/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/americanapparel.jpg

hahahaha

sorry, that's who came to mind

I love how on that blog post it's all "oh sure you can find exceptions but you'd miss the larger change" as if a) he's been arguing about how INDIE bands have changed since the 90s and b) by ignoring the larger picture you can better see the larger picture.

so who's the Hitchens of rockcrit?

fuck, who isn't

Other things that have been said that I wondered quite a bit about when reading the article: why aren't bands who take ideas from (mostly black) free jazz acknowledged at all? Free jazz doesn't fonk, sure, but I guess this kind of goes along with the nebulous and reductionist concept of "black music" Sasha's kind of working with, here. This was mentioned, what do more people think of it?

Well, aside from it being a glaring omission on SFJ's part, it's illustrative with regard to the minefield of identifying certain musical characteristics as Black or white or whatevers. As I alluded to waaaaaay upthread, folks like Cecil Taylor and Bill Dixon got shit (sometimes from white critics, sometimes from Black musicians) for not being "Black" enough, and the Europeans musicians who were deeply influenced by Coleman, Taylor, Dixon et al desperately wanted to distance themselves from "Free Jazz" so they insisted that their music had less Black influence than it actually did.

If I had Charles Shaar Murray's Crosstown Traffic handy, I'd be quoting the shit out of it right now.

I think this was quoted upthread, but on his New Yorker blog he gives a partial explanation for what he left out:

you can see significant miscegenation in major-label artists like Amy Winehouse, or indie acts like Spoon and LCD Soundsystem, but I don’t think that they affect the larger change I perceive: that miscegenation no longer happens in the same way, and indie rock is Exhibit A

I sure wish he'd explain why he thinks they do not affect the large change he perceives. If he thinks they are exceptions to the general trend he should have said so. He also throws his yardstick out the window when he proclaims his affection for Grizzly Bear, whom he says have no connection to black music. I agree with Al that he seems to be aiming at the Pazz & Jop electorate

if you consider albert ayler, wolf eyes is operating within the traditions of black music

king tubby too

sorry, "king tubby" also functions where "albert ayler" does in that sentence

obviously, haha

If he thinks they are exceptions to the general trend he should have said so.

He also should have pointed out the moment in US indie rock where bands like LCD Soundsystem and Spoon WEREN'T the exception.

who likes the decemberists anyway? even corny indie fux i know think they are gay drama club dorks. spoon seems way more core indie than decemberists to me.

I think people who go ga-ga for the Shins and Death Cab for Cutie like the Decemberists. My guess is that Spoon is one of their "edgier" tastes.

a zillion xps

Yeah, I was thinking about Rancid ( though -- do they even exist at this point?) not longer after I talked about how indie bands aren't as good as incorporating reggae as punk and new wave bands were in the late '70s; almost added a post about them and Sublime (who obviously don't exist anymore, but still), but didn't get around to it. At any rate, both of those bands had plenty of reggae, and at least started out on indie labels.

Also, wow, I despise them and always will, but has anybody mentioned the Chili Peppers? At least a little funk influence there, I'd say, and swagger, too, even if it's hard to stomach. And a few million fans, at least.

To be fair, most indie kids I knew back in college also listened to a decent amount of rap, even if it was mostly undie rap.

xpost

The major label/mainstream bands that shatter the "rock n roll doesn't miscegenate anymore" thesis e.g. RHCP/Sublime/the rap-rock behemoth have been mentioned a lot, but (and this was mentioned upthread) isn't Sasha's thesis that indie rock doesn't miscegenate anymore?

xpost

I think people who go ga-ga for the Shins and Death Cab for Cutie like the Decemberists. My guess is that Spoon is one of their "edgier" tastes.

-- Euler, Wednesday, October 17, 2007 4:44 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

yeah i guess that this article also has something to do with the fact that, like I don't know -- post Stokes? Post Garden State soundtrack? Post TV commericals using indie music all the time? There's a real split between people that like "indie" the commercial genre and actual underground rock

Also, wow, I despise them and always will, but has anybody mentioned the Chili Peppers?

...

isn't Sasha's thesis that indie rock doesn't miscegenate anymore?

I suppose he could have pretended RHCP and Fishbone were the pre-Nirvana college rock norm, but he didn't. Would have been an even funnier piece, though!

"when did indie rock stop sounding like Faith No More?"

xpost I teach at a university in a very white state and the indie kids I know don't listen to any rap or r&b or dance beyond e.g. Oakenfold. In fact earlier this year one of them made the "rap isn't music" "argument" to me. If there is a trend toward segregation in indie rock, then I suspect this attitude is part of it, and it would have been nice for SFJ to say more about it (it's pretty old at this point).

Also I'm not clear on whether the "problem" SFJ is concerned with is a problem about artists primarily, or fans.

it just makes it even more of a lame article that there are 10000 examples of musical miscegenation (as mentioned, RHCP, rap-rock, RATM, Jon Spencer, Phish, jam bands, bla bla bla, even if they all suck), but Sasha picks one tiny, average-selling genre that arguably didn't really miscegenate in its history at all (with a few exceptions), if one is draw a line from VU through 80s SST indie to Pavement to Arcade Fire.

RHCP and Sublime and Rancid and No Doubt and Mighty Mighty Bosstones and Dave Matthews Band and 311 were and still are really popular among young white people in America, whether any of those bands are still together or not. listen to any modern rock station that still leans heavy on 90's oldies and you'll hear at least a couple of those bands every hour. but they're not indie and more importantly, they're not credible or "cool" to critics like SFJ, so they don't get a mention.

"commercial, but generally appealing"

woops, "commercial but generally unappealing"

i accidentally took his contradictory statement and made it redundant.

The elephant in the room is that hardly anyone listens to indie rock anyway.

no i think the elephant in the room is that it's harder to define what indie rock exactly is more so than it is to define psych or country.

b-b-but the postal service went gold!

oh wait ignore them

x-post

does Sasha frequent ILM at all anymore? think he'll read this thread?

alternate titles for this piece that I'd approve of:

- Indie Rock: Where Have All The Competent Drummers Gone?

- Why Aren't Orange County Ska Bands Allowed In The Indie Rock Treehouse?

^^^nice

why all the "VU are uber-white" stuff? they are easily the most doo-wop influenced of any 60s rock band i can think of.

Why Aren't Orange County Ska Bands Allowed In The Indie Rock Treehouse?

The treehouse can have 'em!

Elsewhere, roffles.

I dunno, is indie rock that hard to circumscribe? As someone said above, isn't it whatever soundtracks those "serious" movies the kids these days like, e.g. Rushmore, Garden State? There's some marketing category here, and this music seems to hit the sweet spot.

I will also say that I went to an Arcade Fire show a couple of weeks ago, the first indie show I've been to in years, and I was amazed at how many women were there---not at all the sausage factory I was used to. So I think that has something to do with it, but I can't even begin to say what.

the rushmore soundtrack is almost all 60s british invasion stuff. not contemporary indie rock.

is indie rock that hard to circumcise?

loving the LaMonte posts here

when rock critics talk about indie language goes on holiday

ok sorry had no idea

why does women not respond to bass?

why all the "VU are uber-white" stuff? they are easily the most doo-wop influenced of any 60s rock band i can think of.

...and half their grooves are ripped from Bo Diddley.

http://i13.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/98/a1/d4d6_1_b.JPG

a paler shade of robot jugs

the heart of this is that sfj stil hasnt gotten over what every ilm dude who fucks with hip-house/metal/ambient/whatever more than indie rock learned like 3-4 years ago which is to stop bitching about rock critics liking rock critic music and just listen to whatever you want - sometimes theres even other dudes you can talk about this shit who you'll find if you stop trying to make such a big fucking deal to rock critic dudes how you dont like rock critic music

his yearly best-ofs are pretty "rock crit" music as far as I know it

everyone who thinks that "indie rock" is obsolete/unpopular needs to spend 4 years on a liberal arts college campus with rich kids who love this stuff and will someday be VIPs

Hokum. Indie rock, or whatever you want to call it is a reaction to the mainstream, just like punk rock was a reaction against AOR (or classic rock or whatever.) Or if you disagree with that then at least it's an alternative in the marketplace.

And as an alternative it has to be different than the perceived mainstream. And it's this lack of swing - or lack of any rhythm and blues influence - that accomplishes this. Arcade Fire with Sly & Robbie as the rhythm section would not be Arcade Fire. And people wouldn't call them indie rock. Just like Pavement with the Doobie Brothers rhythm section wouldn't even be close to Pavement or indie rock either.

There are other ways to do this of course, Minutemen being the notable exception. And the more garagey side of indie rock is an exception that SFJ doesn't mention.

Or maybe bands are just the sum of their influences and the current generation grew up listening to Pavement and the Church.

To ascribe racist motives pertaining to any of this seems pretty irresponsible as well as misguided. You might as well say that 1950s monster movies were systematically eradicating any traces of traditional slapstick comedy. They didn't use any of the elements of slapstick becuase that's not what they were, they were monster movies.

Why isn't SFJ criticizing rap music for the lack of, say, Celtic influences? Sure we had House of Pain but they're long gone. Why can't Lil Wayne drop in some bagpipe samples? Is this some sort of denial of Celtic culture? Or is it that bagpipes don't really go well with hip hop?