Visiting North Korea?

xp

you seem to be under the impression that americans somehow deserve special treatment

xp

you seem to be under the impression that americans somehow deserve special treatment

― i n f i n i t y (∞), Monday, June 19, 2017 2:00 PM (twenty-eight seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you're either being facetious or stupid

Still standing by your previous post, dylann?

xp

you go into a country

they tell you do not do a list of things or you will be punished with the utmost severity

you do it anyway

a tragedy yes

but what do you expect

https://startrekreview.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/wesley-justice.jpg

xp how are you so certain that he did it?

i never said i was "so certain" but north korea doesn't sentence random americans who committed no crime under nk law to hard labour

look dude if you follow the rules, north korea is safe unless you are a north korean refugee or once held north (or to lesser degree south) korean passport

the way the north korean gov't treated him was still horrible and they are making an example of him because he is american, but why in the world would you risk it? would it have been so difficult to follow the rules that you are told entering a foreign country where you have no rights?

if you're interested there are pieces written by north korean scholars out there where you can get a balanced perspective

I don't think it's acceptable to visit nk as a tourist for a lot of reasons more serious than the necessary arrogance and sense of privilege. But it is staggering to hear people react to this with a "meh, should have known better".

Without meaning to put words in your mouth infinity, I can sort of see where you are coming from in the sense of going to nk not being a joke / don't treat it flippantly. In the context of being a dumb 21 year old kid though, don't you empathize at all with his actions? 100% agree with the post earlier in the thread in that it could have been me in another life.

if you're interested there are pieces written by north korean scholars out there where you can get a balanced perspective

I would definitely be interested if you have links btw

if you have victim-blaming thoughts at a bare minimum keep them to yourself

the way the north korean gov't treated him was still horrible and they are making an example of him because he is american, but

sounds like special treatment for americans tbh

totally could have been me, thought about visitng when i lived in china and i've also been blackout drunk alone there and other third world countries

yes, i was a moron

the kid was sentenced to hard labor. iirc, prisoner abuse is not the same as hard labor. hard labor does not induce anoxic brain damage. you can blame him all you like for putting himself in a position to be sentenced harshly, but nations are expected to abide by minimum standards of humanity, and this kid was obviously exposed to treatment far more harsh than his actual sentence called for.

unless it was a botched suicide, but no one's saying a word to suggest that

nations are expected to abide by minimum standards of humanity

NK cares not one bit for this though right?

jfc, we have only the fuckin' *north korean government's* word that this even happened and they didn't just decide to make an example of an innocent kid, maybe certain ppl should cool it w/ the "look dude if you follow the rules..." crap

I remember hearing nearly this same argument from both sides 20 years ago with Michael Fay. No, this dude shouldn't have been imprisoned, sentenced to hard labor, and sent home in a coma to die all for stealing a banner. It's horrible, and it's a tragedy.

But there's got to be some gray area here between "blaming the victim" and not being a dumbass in a brutally authoritarian country. Saying that a black man shot in a white neighborhood shouldn't have been there or a rape victim shouldn't have been at that party are vile positions to take because in this country, in theory, everyone is afforded the right to not be treated that way.

But this American was a guest, an outsider, with no rights afforded to him. He must have entered the country knowing his room would be bugged, his cellphone could be searched and that his passport could be taken away and held at any moment. And yet, he must've still thought he was bulletproof by pulling such a stupid stunt. You can't ignore the fact that he's the one who could have prevented this.

Also, he may have been younger than most of us, but let's not go back to calling the 21-year-old white dude "just a kid."

it's true. white dudes age in dog years.

so if the US was a more authoritarian society, those positions would be ok?

No but it's difficult to sympathize with someone who taunts a wolf

uh some of you guys are fucking crazy lol

You can't ignore the fact that he's the one who could have prevented this.

like.................................................................

But this American was a guest, an outsider, with no rights afforded to him. He must have entered the country knowing his room would be bugged, his cellphone could be searched and that his passport could be taken away and held at any moment.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/16/world/asia/otto-warmbier-north-korea-travel.html?mcubz=2

The website of Young Pioneer Tours anticipates a frequently asked question about North Korea: “How safe is it?” “Extremely safe!” the company replies, in an answer that remained on its site without qualification even after the return this week of one of its customers, Otto F. Warmbier, in a coma with what doctors described Thursday as “extensive loss of brain tissue in all regions of his brain.

...

Young Pioneer Tours is one of a handful of companies authorized to organize trips to North Korea. Its website says it is based in the Chinese city of Xi’an and run by people from several countries including Australia, Britain, China and New Zealand. It advertises “budget tours to destinations your mother wants you to stay away from,” including “the first North Korean booze cruise and beer festival.”

...

But Young Pioneer’s website presents a cheerier view of travel to North Korea than many of its competitors, describing it as “probably one of the safest places on Earth to visit.”

Unlike some competitors, it makes no mention of the United States State Department’s travel advisory that “strongly warns” Americans against traveling to North Korea because of the “serious risk of arrest and long-term detention.” Instead, the website asks: “I’m American. Is this a problem?” and answers, “Not at all!”

Adam Pitt, a British citizen who lives in Dubai and traveled with Young Pioneer to North Korea in 2013, said people on the tour drank excessively and asked inappropriate sexual questions of a female North Korean guide. The company’s co-founder, Gareth Johnson, did nothing to stop the behavior and was also drinking, he added.

Oh more rude american tourists thx 4 that

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/booze-bribes-and-propaganda-the-company-that-promises-safe-travel-in-north-korea-061917.html

Gareth Johnson is a 36-year-old British entrepreneur and tour guide who identifies himself as the founder of Young Pioneer Tours. In previous interviews and his social media accounts, he portrays himself as a hard-partying adventurer. He briefly put on a more serious face after Warmbier's arrest, telling Reuters last year that "I stayed back [in North Korea] when I heard Otto had been detained” in order to help Warmbier, or in his words, “to try and work out what the situation was.”

But a photograph from Gareth Johnson’s Instagram account dated January 11, 2016, barely a week after Warmbier had been detained, does not show Johnson engaging in negotiations or diplomacy. Instead, the photograph depicts Johnson in North Korea cuddling with a bottle of clear liquor. Warmbier had been arrested only nine days before Johnson published that image of himself and his liquor bottle.

they actaully call themselves 'young pioneers' lol

But drinking is a common theme throughout the Instagram pages belonging to Johnson and Young Pioneer Tours. Numerous photographs show Johnson or other tour guides drinking whiskey straight from the bottle, images that wouldn’t be concerning had the guides not been entrusted with leading tourists around a country that can be openly hostile to foreigners.

Behind the surface, the story is much worse, according to a former Young Pioneer Tours customer. A man who provided evidence that he traveled with the company to North Korea in 2013 tells ConsumerAffairs that he was almost detained with the rest of his Young Pioneer Tours group on their train ride home, as they tried to return to China.

The customer says the company's founder Gareth Johnson was so drunk throughout the trip that he placed the group he was guiding in serious danger, particularly during that train ride. The customer says that North Korean guards at the border ordered the Young Pioneer Tours group off the train, until Johnson paid the guards cash bribes.

anyway otto warmbier was the only who could have prevented this

didn't hugnry4ass get banned for life from ilx at one point for saying that like that dude who got beheaded and cannibalized on the greyhound bus in canada should've seen it coming or something. that's kinda what this discussion reminds me of.

It's really not difficult to sympathize with someone who was murdered, even if you think it was a predictable injustice. The injustice of what was done to him is independent of whether he should have known the consequences.

I'm getting awful flashbacks to the Fidel Castro rip thread.

Oh more rude american tourists thx 4 that

― i n f i n i t y (∞), Monday, June 19, 2017 9:10 PM (ten minutes ago) Bookmark

this is like.......

rude to who? the north korean govt for allegedly entering the wrong floor of a hotel and touching a sign? why do you give a shit if someone is rude to the north korean govt?

Ha, you want to ban me for saying that?

Yeah, ok. Let's blame the tourism agency, not the adult who decided to flaunt the rules of the dictatorship.

It's a damn shame, but Anheuser Busch shouldn't be blamed when some 21-year-old drinks too much Bud and drives off a cliff.

The punishment far outweighed the crime, but yeah, there could have been one tiny thing that could've prevented this.

Ask me about the bullfighter who just died after getting gored. Guess what could've been done there too as well.

North Korea was morally culpable, 21-year-old was stupid. These two things aren't mutually exclusive.

it's difficult to sympathize with someone who taunts a wolf

it's not difficult, you're just invested in your own sense of personal responsibility & project it onto others, who you deem stupid for not behaving as you do. people who judge their own behaviour harshly might feel entitled to do it to other people. it's always the powerful which can't help itself, and however absurd the laws are, they are never portrayed as a provocation.

It's a damn shame, but Anheuser Busch shouldn't be blamed when some 21-year-old drinks too much Bud and drives off a cliff.

― pplains, Monday, June 19, 2017 9:21 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark

so far you've compared a government that chose to imprison and torture someone for a false crime to... a cliff and a cow

the north korean govt is... an inanimate object.... and otto warmbier drove off of it

jordan otm

the north korean govt has been caged for life by otto warmbier and only released for the purposes of sport and entertainment. when otto warmbier tripped over his robe of course the north korean govt was going to plunge its horns into otto warmbier's torso. those are the rules of engagement.

It's a damn shame, but Anheuser Busch shouldn't be blamed when some 21-year-old drinks too much Bud and drives off a cliff.

― pplains, Monday, June 19, 2017

in the annals of ILE hysterical analogizing, this might top the list.

Well this escalated quickly.

I think the assumption he was tortured is an interesting application of Occam's razor

Ask me about the bullfighter who just died after getting gored. Guess what could've been done there too as well.

― pplains, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 11:23 (twenty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

bulls don't have the capacity for logic or reasoning or diplomacy. the north koreans in power do, especially the ones who lived in switzerland.

at worst, he stole a political propaganda poster (this is of course based on taking NK's claims at face value).

his coma may or may not have been caused by physical abuse (the doctors stated there was no clear sign of abuse) but that it was definitely not botulism, like NK claimed, so they were definitely lying about what happened. very possible that it could have happened due to neglect (respiratory event with no medical intervention until irreversible damage had been done).

He was in a coma for over a year, which they neglected to inform the family.

yeah it was a bad move to commit a petty crime in a brutal regime but this is a tragedy however you slice it IMO

yeah i shouldn't have used tortured too glibly...

My point is you climb into a bullring, you're taking a chance of getting gored.

Step into North Korea, you're putting your life into the hands of a brutal, draconian dictatorship that considers these kind of actions routine.

I'm not justifying what North Korea did, but don't color me shocked either.

in the annals of ILE hysterical analogizing, this might top the list.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, June 19, 2017 6:42 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, i think this one tops it:

didn't hugnry4ass get banned for life from ilx at one point for saying that like that dude who got beheaded and cannibalized on the greyhound bus in canada should've seen it coming or something. that's kinda what this discussion reminds me of.

― J0rdan S., Monday, June 19, 2017 6:16 PM (fifty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

pplains otm

it was actually for making fun of the decapitation victim (which I think ethan joined in on as well) even after Abbott had begged them to be cool and stop.