nations are expected to abide by minimum standards of humanity
NK cares not one bit for this though right?
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 00:20 (six years ago) link
jfc, we have only the fuckin' *north korean government's* word that this even happened and they didn't just decide to make an example of an innocent kid, maybe certain ppl should cool it w/ the "look dude if you follow the rules..." crap
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 00:36 (six years ago) link
I remember hearing nearly this same argument from both sides 20 years ago with Michael Fay. No, this dude shouldn't have been imprisoned, sentenced to hard labor, and sent home in a coma to die all for stealing a banner. It's horrible, and it's a tragedy.
But there's got to be some gray area here between "blaming the victim" and not being a dumbass in a brutally authoritarian country. Saying that a black man shot in a white neighborhood shouldn't have been there or a rape victim shouldn't have been at that party are vile positions to take because in this country, in theory, everyone is afforded the right to not be treated that way.
But this American was a guest, an outsider, with no rights afforded to him. He must have entered the country knowing his room would be bugged, his cellphone could be searched and that his passport could be taken away and held at any moment. And yet, he must've still thought he was bulletproof by pulling such a stupid stunt. You can't ignore the fact that he's the one who could have prevented this.
Also, he may have been younger than most of us, but let's not go back to calling the 21-year-old white dude "just a kid."
― pplains, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 00:41 (six years ago) link
it's true. white dudes age in dog years.
― Treeship, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 00:47 (six years ago) link
so if the US was a more authoritarian society, those positions would be ok?
― ogmor, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 00:52 (six years ago) link
No but it's difficult to sympathize with someone who taunts a wolf
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 00:57 (six years ago) link
uh some of you guys are fucking crazy lol
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 00:59 (six years ago) link
You can't ignore the fact that he's the one who could have prevented this.
like.................................................................
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:04 (six years ago) link
But this American was a guest, an outsider, with no rights afforded to him. He must have entered the country knowing his room would be bugged, his cellphone could be searched and that his passport could be taken away and held at any moment.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/16/world/asia/otto-warmbier-north-korea-travel.html?mcubz=2
The website of Young Pioneer Tours anticipates a frequently asked question about North Korea: “How safe is it?” “Extremely safe!” the company replies, in an answer that remained on its site without qualification even after the return this week of one of its customers, Otto F. Warmbier, in a coma with what doctors described Thursday as “extensive loss of brain tissue in all regions of his brain.
...
Young Pioneer Tours is one of a handful of companies authorized to organize trips to North Korea. Its website says it is based in the Chinese city of Xi’an and run by people from several countries including Australia, Britain, China and New Zealand. It advertises “budget tours to destinations your mother wants you to stay away from,” including “the first North Korean booze cruise and beer festival.”
But Young Pioneer’s website presents a cheerier view of travel to North Korea than many of its competitors, describing it as “probably one of the safest places on Earth to visit.”
Unlike some competitors, it makes no mention of the United States State Department’s travel advisory that “strongly warns” Americans against traveling to North Korea because of the “serious risk of arrest and long-term detention.” Instead, the website asks: “I’m American. Is this a problem?” and answers, “Not at all!”
Adam Pitt, a British citizen who lives in Dubai and traveled with Young Pioneer to North Korea in 2013, said people on the tour drank excessively and asked inappropriate sexual questions of a female North Korean guide. The company’s co-founder, Gareth Johnson, did nothing to stop the behavior and was also drinking, he added.
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:08 (six years ago) link
Oh more rude american tourists thx 4 that
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:10 (six years ago) link
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/booze-bribes-and-propaganda-the-company-that-promises-safe-travel-in-north-korea-061917.html
Gareth Johnson is a 36-year-old British entrepreneur and tour guide who identifies himself as the founder of Young Pioneer Tours. In previous interviews and his social media accounts, he portrays himself as a hard-partying adventurer. He briefly put on a more serious face after Warmbier's arrest, telling Reuters last year that "I stayed back [in North Korea] when I heard Otto had been detained” in order to help Warmbier, or in his words, “to try and work out what the situation was.”
But a photograph from Gareth Johnson’s Instagram account dated January 11, 2016, barely a week after Warmbier had been detained, does not show Johnson engaging in negotiations or diplomacy. Instead, the photograph depicts Johnson in North Korea cuddling with a bottle of clear liquor. Warmbier had been arrested only nine days before Johnson published that image of himself and his liquor bottle.
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:10 (six years ago) link
they actaully call themselves 'young pioneers' lol
― global tetrahedron, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:11 (six years ago) link
But drinking is a common theme throughout the Instagram pages belonging to Johnson and Young Pioneer Tours. Numerous photographs show Johnson or other tour guides drinking whiskey straight from the bottle, images that wouldn’t be concerning had the guides not been entrusted with leading tourists around a country that can be openly hostile to foreigners. Behind the surface, the story is much worse, according to a former Young Pioneer Tours customer. A man who provided evidence that he traveled with the company to North Korea in 2013 tells ConsumerAffairs that he was almost detained with the rest of his Young Pioneer Tours group on their train ride home, as they tried to return to China.
The customer says the company's founder Gareth Johnson was so drunk throughout the trip that he placed the group he was guiding in serious danger, particularly during that train ride. The customer says that North Korean guards at the border ordered the Young Pioneer Tours group off the train, until Johnson paid the guards cash bribes.
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:11 (six years ago) link
anyway otto warmbier was the only who could have prevented this
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:12 (six years ago) link
didn't hugnry4ass get banned for life from ilx at one point for saying that like that dude who got beheaded and cannibalized on the greyhound bus in canada should've seen it coming or something. that's kinda what this discussion reminds me of.
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:16 (six years ago) link
It's really not difficult to sympathize with someone who was murdered, even if you think it was a predictable injustice. The injustice of what was done to him is independent of whether he should have known the consequences.
― jmm, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:17 (six years ago) link
I'm getting awful flashbacks to the Fidel Castro rip thread.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:18 (six years ago) link
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Monday, June 19, 2017 9:10 PM (ten minutes ago) Bookmark
this is like.......
rude to who? the north korean govt for allegedly entering the wrong floor of a hotel and touching a sign? why do you give a shit if someone is rude to the north korean govt?
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:21 (six years ago) link
Ha, you want to ban me for saying that?
Yeah, ok. Let's blame the tourism agency, not the adult who decided to flaunt the rules of the dictatorship.
It's a damn shame, but Anheuser Busch shouldn't be blamed when some 21-year-old drinks too much Bud and drives off a cliff.
― pplains, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:21 (six years ago) link
The punishment far outweighed the crime, but yeah, there could have been one tiny thing that could've prevented this.
Ask me about the bullfighter who just died after getting gored. Guess what could've been done there too as well.
― pplains, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:23 (six years ago) link
North Korea was morally culpable, 21-year-old was stupid. These two things aren't mutually exclusive.
― Zelda Zonk, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:24 (six years ago) link
it's difficult to sympathize with someone who taunts a wolf
it's not difficult, you're just invested in your own sense of personal responsibility & project it onto others, who you deem stupid for not behaving as you do. people who judge their own behaviour harshly might feel entitled to do it to other people. it's always the powerful which can't help itself, and however absurd the laws are, they are never portrayed as a provocation.
― ogmor, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:25 (six years ago) link
― pplains, Monday, June 19, 2017 9:21 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark
so far you've compared a government that chose to imprison and torture someone for a false crime to... a cliff and a cow
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:26 (six years ago) link
the north korean govt is... an inanimate object.... and otto warmbier drove off of it
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:27 (six years ago) link
jordan otm
― k3vin k., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:29 (six years ago) link
the north korean govt has been caged for life by otto warmbier and only released for the purposes of sport and entertainment. when otto warmbier tripped over his robe of course the north korean govt was going to plunge its horns into otto warmbier's torso. those are the rules of engagement.
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:32 (six years ago) link
― pplains, Monday, June 19, 2017
in the annals of ILE hysterical analogizing, this might top the list.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:42 (six years ago) link
Well this escalated quickly.
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:46 (six years ago) link
I think the assumption he was tortured is an interesting application of Occam's razor
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:47 (six years ago) link
― pplains, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 11:23 (twenty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
bulls don't have the capacity for logic or reasoning or diplomacy. the north koreans in power do, especially the ones who lived in switzerland.
― early morning reverse rumplestiltskin rage (Autumn Almanac), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 01:50 (six years ago) link
at worst, he stole a political propaganda poster (this is of course based on taking NK's claims at face value).
his coma may or may not have been caused by physical abuse (the doctors stated there was no clear sign of abuse) but that it was definitely not botulism, like NK claimed, so they were definitely lying about what happened. very possible that it could have happened due to neglect (respiratory event with no medical intervention until irreversible damage had been done).
He was in a coma for over a year, which they neglected to inform the family.
yeah it was a bad move to commit a petty crime in a brutal regime but this is a tragedy however you slice it IMO
― Charles "Butt" Stanton (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:07 (six years ago) link
yeah i shouldn't have used tortured too glibly...
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:08 (six years ago) link
My point is you climb into a bullring, you're taking a chance of getting gored.
Step into North Korea, you're putting your life into the hands of a brutal, draconian dictatorship that considers these kind of actions routine.
I'm not justifying what North Korea did, but don't color me shocked either.
― pplains, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:10 (six years ago) link
in the annals of ILE hysterical analogizing, this might top the list.― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, June 19, 2017 6:42 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, June 19, 2017 6:42 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
yeah, i think this one tops it:
didn't hugnry4ass get banned for life from ilx at one point for saying that like that dude who got beheaded and cannibalized on the greyhound bus in canada should've seen it coming or something. that's kinda what this discussion reminds me of.― J0rdan S., Monday, June 19, 2017 6:16 PM (fifty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― J0rdan S., Monday, June 19, 2017 6:16 PM (fifty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:10 (six years ago) link
pplains otm
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:11 (six years ago) link
it was actually for making fun of the decapitation victim (which I think ethan joined in on as well) even after Abbott had begged them to be cool and stop.
― Charles "Butt" Stanton (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:12 (six years ago) link
The medical evidence iirc is the botulism thing can't be proved one way or the other, since would have happened a long time ago and he's been in a coma since
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:14 (six years ago) link
Cynically speaking: foreign nationals die in custody in lots of countries. There are very few countries for whom it is a viable diplomatic strategy to make the situation look as bad as possible.
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:16 (six years ago) link
'they're not playing 4d chess' in 3, 2 ...
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:17 (six years ago) link
xxxpost I guess idg the point of going to the trouble of making a show about why you don't feel sorry for someone, like fine, feel those things, but at best all that's going to happen is angering people who are legitimately upset about the event.
― Charles "Butt" Stanton (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:17 (six years ago) link
What, like his parents
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:19 (six years ago) link
i think people should be free to state their positions and defend them when other people call them crazy... nobody here knows otto warmbier
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:20 (six years ago) link
xxxxpost yeah that's not what the doctors are saying like, at all:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/06/14/what-botulism-comatose-u-s-college-student-otto-warmbier-released-north-korea/395354001/
― Charles "Butt" Stanton (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:20 (six years ago) link
obviously they can't say for sure it wasn't botulism but they're not saying "it might be, it might not be", they're casting significant doubt on whether it happened and are saying even if he did have it, it's unlikely it'd cause a coma
― Charles "Butt" Stanton (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:21 (six years ago) link
someone can be legitimately upset about an event that involves somebody they don't know, I know that might be *shocking*
anyway so far we've got
1. another drunk american tourist who cares2. a 21 year old who visits north korea should not be surprised if he winds up dead
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:21 (six years ago) link
xpost in fact, that very thing happened in the Manitoba bus decapitation thread mentioned upthread.
― Charles "Butt" Stanton (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:22 (six years ago) link
Can you explain why you disagree with 2? (I disagree with 1.)
― grawlix (unperson), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:24 (six years ago) link
― ogmor, Monday, June 19, 2017 6:25 PM (forty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
it's common sense for a country's gov't to expect a visitor to obey their laws. this isn't something unique to north korea
with regard to my personal responsibility, in fact, i do have a sense to at least try to view north korea and its relationship to other countries objectively, because i have probably met over a dozen people who are either from north korea, visited north korea, and have a good friend whose family escaped north korea
i'll say it again, warmbier's death is a tragedy and the north korean gov't *is* a despicable regime, but the way north korea in general is portrayed in western media is irresponsible
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:25 (six years ago) link
I cosign pretty much all of that
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:27 (six years ago) link