rolling explaining conservatism

I like the mention in that post of 'unmarked category', the idea that white and Christian are seen as default, and everything else is defined by it's marked difference from that. But it could go a bit further. A lot of people seem to continue that exact mistake when they discuss this. White Christians are sometimes given a pass voting for Trump because, as the quote says "at least those people don’t piss all over my fundamental sense of self." But they themselves of course piss all over other people's sense of self. And this not to point out cheap hypocrisy, but to say, that of course lgbt, women, and minorities then piss right back at these asshole bigots, it's what people do. But because one category is marked, and one unmarked, only the white christians are immediately looked at in ways that says: 'being humans, their reaction is...'

In the end both sides are humans, and both sides have dark feelings, and it's really just a question of power. If you want blunt, I'm not sure there's anything else to do but say what Gordon Cole said: 'They need to fix their hearts or die.' Nobody can understand everybody, and I'd wager all the effort into understanding these people would be much better used trying to understand ones own allies who differ from one self, since they are the ones who's support is needed. So lay down fucking Hillbilly Elegy and pick up Between the World and Me, if you haven't already.

Tribalism is much worse on the right at this point, though, because the right is one big tribe (white people, mostly) while the left is a coalition of smaller tribes. It's not a moral highground, it's a practical.

"the right" never matured past junior high or high school (private or public) and "the left" is everyone else

From Tombot's LGM link:

It draws a picture of Trump’s base as made up in large part of people who harbor a deep sense of alienation and marginalization, and who see themselves as revolting against The Establishment, especially the media establishment

You had me at "revolting."

Nobody can understand everybody, and I'd wager all the effort into understanding these people would be much better used trying to understand ones own allies who differ from one self, since they are the ones who's support is needed.

This is a terrible prescription. Politics cannot be a zero sum power game in a multicultural democracy. This sort of rejection of universality is basically an alt right position, just the other way. (I'm not saying it's morally equivalent, but it's the same kind of perspective, and it leads to a narrow kind of political vision.)

"Because fuck you" may be slightly different from "because lib tears," but only slightly, and in any case the effect is the same.

This is the first part of the paragraph I'm objecting to

In the end both sides are humans, and both sides have dark feelings, and it's really just a question of power. If you want blunt, I'm not sure there's anything else to do but say what Gordon Cole said: 'They need to fix their hearts or die.'

You're confusing a rejection of an 'unmarked' category with a rejection of universality, Treeship.

If the ppl saying "because fuck conservatives" could demonstrate where the fuck you line is and it didn't quickly become fuck even potential allies or anyone who disagrees with any part of my platform then maybe it could work but as is it is just self-marginalizing. You can't write off everyone who disagrees with you if you have any interest in political power.

I'm not advocating any kind of alt-right-ism, I'm suggesting you extend the same constant calls for 'understanding' that you give to Trump voters constantly to, for example, the student activists you seem so eager to condemn all the time.

Part of the idea of "understanding" Trump voters is finding a way to change them, or tell them why they're misguided. You're in favor of people doing that with student activists?

I haven't seen anyone here going at student activists with the attitude of "Fuck you, change or stop voting and have a stroke" that we're talking about here.

I've been reading about the development of culture in Neolithic communities, and there's some suggestion that the advent of the wall (and with it the concepts of privacy and property and division and othering) may have been the turning point away from collectivism in pre-agrarian societies. Conservatives are the builders of walls.

ignore trump voters. they're like 15% of the entire population. all too often (i'll agree with this stereotype) they're deplorable neolithic loudmouths with zero fellow feeling. fuck you; they've got theirs (or will, when their ship comes in after we drown the federal government). they're not changing the station from fox even if melting glaciers flood the coasts. concentrate on the people who normally don't vote at all. hillary blew it by not speaking more on the campaign trail; two-scoops is right about that

I'm not advocating any kind of alt-right-ism, I'm suggesting you extend the same constant calls for 'understanding' that you give to Trump voters constantly to, for example, the student activists you seem so eager to condemn all the time.

― Frederik B, Friday, July 21, 2017 10:49 AM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is extraordinarily disingenuous. I never demonized student protesters -- critiqued, sure -- and I never called for sympathy with Trump supporters. I said that our analysis of them should extend beyond condemnation and dismissal

Has ilx explained conservatism yet

It's the opposite of proservatism, iirc.

it's in the dna

Part of the idea of "understanding" Trump voters is finding a way to change them, or tell them why they're misguided. You're in favor of people doing that with student activists?

― President Keyes, 21. juli 2017 16:53 (nineteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Well, would be a lot more constructive than what normally happens in the free speech threads. And it seems a better way to spend resources than to try and turn bigots in states like Colorado, which is already blue. Though actually I suspect that if people actually began listening and reading to the students, instead of just to the professors, their views would be more complex.

If the ppl saying "because fuck conservatives" could demonstrate where the fuck you line is and it didn't quickly become fuck even potential allies or anyone who disagrees with any part of my platform then maybe it could work but as is it is just self-marginalizing. You can't write off everyone who disagrees with you if you have any interest in political power.

― Mordy, 21. juli 2017 16:49 (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I mostly agree with this, but this is also just a power analysis. And the pragmatic flipside of this is that there is a point where people just has to be let go. The line will change along with circumstances, but no political project can continue if everyone has a veto.

I'm not advocating any kind of alt-right-ism, I'm suggesting you extend the same constant calls for 'understanding' that you give to Trump voters constantly to, for example, the student activists you seem so eager to condemn all the time.
― Frederik B, Friday, July 21, 2017 10:49 AM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is extraordinarily disingenuous. I never demonized student protesters -- critiqued, sure -- and I never called for sympathy with Trump supporters. I said that our analysis of them should extend beyond condemnation and dismissal

― Treeship, 21. juli 2017 17:05 (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Lol, neither the word 'demonize' or the word 'sympathy' is in my advice. Talk about disingenuous.

You used the word "condemn" though

Yeah, and the word 'eager' as well, but I fail to see the point.

There's like five long-reads every week concerned with figuring out the complex thoughts of the Trump-voter, but one poll that shows black voters like Bernie Sanders fine, and it's SEE!! And the quest for understanding stops.

Well, would be a lot more constructive than what normally happens in the free speech threads

This is very much bullshit. Everyone on those threads who is critical of student tactics or dogma, or who weighs certain values differently is coming at it from a place of sympathy with the underlying ideas the students present.

That's not what I'm saying, Keyes.

"the right" never matured past junior high or high school (private or public) and "the left" is everyone else

this is crap btw, the left never stops caring about which cafeteria table you sit at either

In fact, I'm arguing exactly the opposite. Take a look at the people that share underlying ideas with you, but whose tactics or dogmas you disagree with, and try really to understand where they're coming from, where you diverge, and why they disagree with you. I'd say that's a much better use of time and effort than another look at Trump voters.

There's like five long-reads every week concerned with figuring out the complex thoughts of the Trump-voter, but one poll that shows black voters like Bernie Sanders fine, and it's SEE!! And the quest for understanding stops.

― Frederik B, Friday, July 21, 2017 11:29 AM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

So the reason for this is that these people's voting habits created an international crisis.

Colorado stayed blue. So no. I'd wager the 'unmarked' thingy has a lot to do with it.

In fact, Colorado has become progressively more blue over the years. So why not investigate that instead?

Instead of investigating why a dangerous reactioary party controls all three branches of the federal government and also dominates state governments?

Yes

Quite simply. Understand your allies in this fight, instead of your enemies.

Why not...both?

lots of americans prefer giving each other shit to cooperating in any meaningful sense, fred

'shrewd' frontier skepticism

Upthread, I infodumped neurological studies on physiological differences between conservative and liberal brains. Evolutionary psychologists have been at it too, particularly with respect to the "behavioral immune system" of the disgust response. One can expose people to images and smells unrelated to politics, and the intensity of their response predicts their politics.

Tybur et al, 2010. Extending the behavioral immune system to political psychology: Are political conservatism and disgust sensitivity really related?. Evolutionary Psychology, 8(4), p.147470491000800406.
Inbar et al 2012. Disgust sensitivity, political conservatism, and voting. Social Psychological and Personality Science, 3(5), pp.537-544.
Terrizzi et al, 2013. The behavioral immune system and social conservatism: A meta-analysis. Evolution and Human Behavior, 34(2), pp.99-108.
Pizarro et al 2014, Politics, pathogens, and disgust.
Feinberg et al, 2014. Gut check: Reappraisal of disgust helps explain liberal–conservative differences on issues of purity. Emotion, 14(3), p.513.
Clark & Fessler, 2015. The role of disgust in norms, and of norms in disgust research: Why liberals shouldn’t be morally disgusted by moral disgust. Topoi, 34(2), pp.483-498.
Brenner & Inbar, Y., 2015. Disgust sensitivity predicts political ideology and policy attitudes in the Netherlands. European Journal of Social Psychology, 45(1), pp.27-38.

As with innate racism, we're fighting some deep-seated instincts here. It will be uphill all the way.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/07/alt-right-william-regnery-richard-spencer/

nurture > nature

Depends on whether you follow tabula rasa 20th century anthropologists, or the data. Both play a role.

is there any evidence that disgust sensitivity is genetic?

also sanpaku, maybe i'm confused about your argument here but from the very first link u posted:

"Here, we test a hypothesis that political conservatism functions as a pathogen-avoidance strategy. Across three studies, we consistently find no relationship between sensitivity to pathogen disgust and multiple measures of political conservatism."

Similar heritability to other mental predispositions, it seems:

approximately half of the variation in pathogen, sexual, and moral disgust is due to genetic effects

Sherlock et al, 2016. The quantitative genetics of disgust sensitivity. Emotion, 16(1), p.43.

Bivariate correlations revealed that conservatism was weakly related to sensitivity to sexual disgust, r = .13, p < .05, but not moral disgust, r = .07, p = .17, or pathogen disgust, r = .03, p = .64.

not a surprise about sexual disgust and no correlation w/ moral or pathogen which suggests this theory is doa

Mostly posted that first study as an early review of the arguments. The 2013 meta-analysis of 24 studies which found a positive relation is the most recent I've found.

Psychology is in the midst of a repeatability crisis, but I thought this angle on what underlies conservatism was worth mentioning.

it's definitely an interesting theory esp if you believe (as i do) that conservatism is [at least partially] about sensitivity to threat / degradation of social structure / society - but even if it were explanatory it doesn't give us much imo. it just indicates that there are metrics that replicate the ideology and that might have a genetic factor. i personally caution skepticism about its value tho.

Psychology is in the midst of a repeatability crisis

"In the midst of" implies there was a time when it wasn't, and that perhaps there will be a time when it won't be.

NRO is more fun than this thread.

"You can't understand everyone" might be true in terms of pure pedantry but it's still the best ideal to strive towards imo.

If we're talking purely strategically though, and within a US elections context, the biggest priority would probably be to understand people who didn't vote at all. The reason that ppl prioritize "understanding" Trump voters over allies with different tactical/ideological viewpoints is that they view Trump voters as Other and allies as part of Us. Which is flawed reasoning to a degree but it's more true than untrue.

The biggest priority for Democrats in the US should always be understanding why they can't drive turnout the way conservatism does

But they're more concerned with fundraising

Upthread, I infodumped neurological studies on physiological differences between conservative and liberal brains. Evolutionary psychologists have been at it too, particularly with respect to the "behavioral immune system" of the disgust response. One can expose people to images and smells unrelated to politics, and the intensity of their response predicts their politics.

As with innate racism, we're fighting some deep-seated instincts here. It will be uphill all the way.

― полезные дурак (Sanpaku)

counterargument a to this theory: the motherfucking president

yes those other people that are all horrible are so tribal and divisive and that is why they are bad people

― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau)

this post was on the other thread but was clearly meant for this one and honestly isn't going to make the thread worse at this point

who said i was only talking about other people? i stopped thinking of myself as a "good person" when that ilx thread told me to several years ago