The VICE video that everyone is linking to really is worth the time to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sP0Nlngg
― Karl Malone, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 19:55 (six years ago) link
Also disappointed at leftists going after the ACLU for defending Nazis right to march cuz duh this is what the ACLU has always done and they are correct "hate speech" short of specific incitement to violence is 100% legal― Οὖτις, Sunday, 13 August 2017 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Οὖτις, Sunday, 13 August 2017 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
LOL this garbage.
This is good on the free speech junkies.
Point: genocide is good we should do itCounterpoint: this very format makes genocide a conceivable policy option, which is fascists goal pic.twitter.com/gUfWQJkwtB— Joseph (@JosephKay76) August 16, 2017
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 19:55 (six years ago) link
maybe blame the C'ville police for standing back and letting chaos reign
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 19:57 (six years ago) link
(guilty free speech junkie here.)
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 19:58 (six years ago) link
although this sort of thing doesn't come up much in NY demonstrations because we have RELATIVELY SANE GUN LAWS
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 19:59 (six years ago) link
I will not be moved on this point. They had a right to march and chant their garbage. They did not have a right to threaten, assault and murder people, and the city/cops/permitting agencies were wrong not to foresee and deal with them as a threat to public safety, which they are.
xp
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 19:59 (six years ago) link
it's almost like the laws on this are different here than in the UK
― sleeve, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:01 (six years ago) link
(outic otm)
also it is so bizarre to see people on the left wanting to have the gov't to take a heavier hand on limiting free speech, cuz historically it's not right-wing speech that the gov't has been eager to limit. COINTELPRO didn't target the KKK.
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:02 (six years ago) link
Shakey and I being in agreement is incontrovertible proof of truth
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:02 (six years ago) link
Yeah my thing is I don't want to debate them, just want to see them at the end of a rope.
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:03 (six years ago) link
and I don't want to move you LOL, just scanned through and saw your turd of a post.
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:04 (six years ago) link
the_donald watch:
FLASHBACK: Before the "Trump-Russia" conspiracy, the DNC e-mails were widely reported as a LEAK and NOT a hack!!!VERY FAKE NEWS (archive.is)Hope Hicks, 28, to be named new White House communications director. SHES 28! (dailymail.co.uk)My daughter was banned from Facebook today for saying "What if I told you that you can support the president and not be a Nazi?" (self.The_Donald)The reason "NAZIS" are being thrown around in every sentence is this...Even rag news "Salon" is reporting the DNC hack was actually a leak. 7 months of work is crashing down. Push this. (twitter.com)BREAKING: After being caught in a lie, the FBI has decided to reopen our case into the secret Clinton-Lynch meeting.IMPORTANT (twitter.com)WHAT JUST HAPPENED: Report is published PROVING DNC emails were LEAKED from somebody on the inside 5 days before Seth Rich was murdered. Even lefty magazines The Nation and Salon are writing articles. Left fires "white supremacist" nuke at Trump - and misses. They're desperate now. (self.The_Donald)
Hope Hicks, 28, to be named new White House communications director. SHES 28! (dailymail.co.uk)
My daughter was banned from Facebook today for saying "What if I told you that you can support the president and not be a Nazi?" (self.The_Donald)
The reason "NAZIS" are being thrown around in every sentence is this...Even rag news "Salon" is reporting the DNC hack was actually a leak. 7 months of work is crashing down. Push this. (twitter.com)
BREAKING: After being caught in a lie, the FBI has decided to reopen our case into the secret Clinton-Lynch meeting.IMPORTANT (twitter.com)
WHAT JUST HAPPENED: Report is published PROVING DNC emails were LEAKED from somebody on the inside 5 days before Seth Rich was murdered. Even lefty magazines The Nation and Salon are writing articles. Left fires "white supremacist" nuke at Trump - and misses. They're desperate now. (self.The_Donald)
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:06 (six years ago) link
If only the police - whose large section sympathise with these Nazis and kill black people - would only stop these Nazis.
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:09 (six years ago) link
Just like your boy Stalin
― softie (silby), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:10 (six years ago) link
haha
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:11 (six years ago) link
fire em and hire more black police
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:23 (six years ago) link
not gonna watch the vice thing. i've seen photos. i've seen videos. i dont want to support yet another group who has made a career profiting off the imagery of violent extremism.
imo boycott the nazi rallies. nobody shows up but news reporters. let them duke it out.
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:33 (six years ago) link
just been thinking of all the 100k+ anti-war demonstrations the media completely slept on during the Iraq war. they choose to cover things for certain reasons, mostly to stoke fear. people have accepted the lie that there isn't an anti-war left. now 350 assholes are proof that half the country wants to kill us.
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:36 (six years ago) link
shut the fuck up
― sleeve, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:39 (six years ago) link
my current "friends of friends" count is one dead, two injured by Nazis
"friends of friends of friends" is one dead, many injured by Nazis
just shut up
― sleeve, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:40 (six years ago) link
fire em and hire more black police― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
That's easier said than done. xps
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:42 (six years ago) link
They did not have a right to threaten
I've asked this rhetorically a few times now, and maybe one of you has the constitutional law backing to help me out, but how is an armed, angry mob whose stated goals and extensive history are violent and intimidating, not innately a public safety threat? Because the right to hate speech is one thing, but an actually seditious and dangerous hate group, with a stated platform of death and destruction or at least close associations with the same, why is that not as dangerous as someone walking down the street juggling chainsaws, let alone shouting fire in a crowded theatre?
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:44 (six years ago) link
Like, if they were marching through Virginia shouting "Jews should be shot," is that covered by the 1st amendment? Because that's what you stand for if you fly a Nazi flag.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:46 (six years ago) link
I believe it would be covered, you have to single out a person and call to action.
good overview here:
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/8/16/16153248/free-speech-nazi-first-amendment-democracy-hate-speech
― sleeve, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:47 (six years ago) link
i thought the law was that anyone can assemble and say anything so long as it isn't directly threatening to a person. admittedly using charged symbols is threatening but "X should be shot" is different than "we will shoot X".
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:48 (six years ago) link
I'll have to spend some time with that Vox article. I just don't understand how innately violent groups with a history of violence, armed, can show up and inevitably provoke violence. If it happens everywhere they go, again and again, eventually don't you have to stop permitting it? Or force people to stand in one cordoned off place and shout from there?
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:53 (six years ago) link
allowed: "all people with long hair should die"
not allowed: "let's kill that guy with the long hair, the one over there"
― sleeve, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:57 (six years ago) link
Shakey OTM. the insane & racist double standard of the cops not being aggressive & shooting rubber bullets at the neo-Nazis was disgusting. if 100s of black people marched ANYWHERE with torches, they would be shot, gassed, assaulted, etc. the police are responsible for allowing this to get out of hand. the KKK marched in Skokie, IL and they still have a right to march today.
― flappy bird, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 20:58 (six years ago) link
Perfect illustration of this here in Baltimore 2 years ago: in Sandtown-Winchester, near where Freddie Gray was arrested, protestors (majority black) breaking curfew were gassed, beaten, and arrested. on the same night in Hampden, a candle-light vigil was allowed to continue half an hour past curfew, with the cops very politely asking the mostly white residents to go home. just abhorrent and plain as day.
― flappy bird, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:01 (six years ago) link
(& just to clarify, i'm not advocating ott violence against any protestors like what we saw here in Baltimore and in Ferguson, but those cops in Charlottesville were hands off in a way that was sickeningly familiar).
― flappy bird, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:02 (six years ago) link
I just don't understand how innately violent groups with a history of violence, armed, can show up and inevitably provoke violence
Except it's not always "inevitable." There was no violence in Skokie in '78 (?).
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:04 (six years ago) link
they def fucked up by allowing that car in. was the road not closed off?
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:05 (six years ago) link
xp Skokie march was proposed in '77 but happened in '78, yeah. no violence
― flappy bird, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:08 (six years ago) link
The argument I have heard made, which is half-legit, is that a shit ton of the protestors were open carrying, and often better armed than the police. The defense made by the police is, hey, no shots were fired, nothing was destroyed. Which is really remarkable, if you think about it. And yet, that does not make this a success. If they felt too threatened to do their job, they should have called in the national guard. But then, if the national guard was called in and had to use force against an armed mob, I'm sure there would be many more dead or injured.
Guns, really, are what fucks up this free speech situation. The asshole gun right has done a sneaky job connecting the first and second amendments, allowing aggressive groups with first amendment rights to also claim to be defensive groups carrying guns not to intimidate but as self defense. It seems pretty circular and in some ways over-protects, constitutionally, people who are innately dangerous. Then again, the guy who hurt the most people used a car.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:08 (six years ago) link
was the road not closed off?
there are a lot of questions around that and I haven't seen any good answers yet
― sleeve, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:11 (six years ago) link
no shots were fired, nothing was destroyed. Which is really remarkable, if you think about it
it really is. two days of armed rioting, not a single shot fired. i saw lots of people wearing helmets, bringing bats, clubs, mace, etc. people had come to cause some shit.
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:15 (six years ago) link
The reason people (including me) are pissed at the ACLU in this instance is not because the march happened, but because the ACLU sued to allow it to happen where it happened, and not at some more controllable park the city wanted it to happen at.
OK, so this was in the Atlantic a couple of days ago:
For decades, plans by groups like the Klan and neo-Nazis to march have been the subject of pitched battles, as towns try to bar them from coming, often to be rebuked by courts. In 1978, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Nazis could march in Skokie, Illinois, saying that flying the swastika did not constitute fighting words. Arrests at Klan-related rallies—both of Klansmen and of their critics—are not uncommon. But in recent decades, bloodshed like what occurred in Charlottesville is rarer. (Of course, Klan members and other extremists have committed incredible acts of violence, including countless lynchings of black people, away from their marches.)
Key item is the notion of "fighting words." The article also claims that bloodshed is "rarer" than arrests at these rallies, but cites nothing.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:16 (six years ago) link
there's going to be a mass shooting at a protest of some kind eventually and it's going to be extremely grim and horrific
― global tetrahedron, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:16 (six years ago) link
Hi DJP, just want to tell you how much I appreciate your presence on ILX, and also your Spotify post-election mixtape has been helping me get through these last few days, especially Ice Cube's "When Will They Shoot?" so thanks for that, too.
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:17 (six years ago) link
<3
― this iphone speaks many languages (DJP), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:19 (six years ago) link
I appreciate all of you guys, tbh, at least to some degree. This is the worst I've felt on a daily basis since the days after the election.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:20 (six years ago) link
"at least to some degree" was not meant to be qualifying, btw, just that I know it would ultimately be healthier for me to just stay off the screen for a while, period.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:21 (six years ago) link
btw if anyone wants to see the playlist horseshoe is talking about:
https://open.spotify.com/user/djperry1973/playlist/3kVB1Spf8xuXgfHSqcv4vr
― this iphone speaks many languages (DJP), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:23 (six years ago) link
I did a very similar one for Inauguration Day:
https://open.spotify.com/user/djperry1973/playlist/0UzUIhTNXuKCma2qML5R7U
very very otm, my sentiments exactly
― sleeve, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:24 (six years ago) link
I don't know enough law to have an opinion on that "controllable" stuff, but don't we wail when protestors at the GOP convention, for example, are confined to yelling in a pen 3 blocks away?
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:27 (six years ago) link
especially Ice Cube's "When Will They Shoot?"
such a monster, this track
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:29 (six years ago) link
xp fair point but this was another public park afaik
― sleeve, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:30 (six years ago) link
this seems inevitable and tbf I'm kinda surprised it hasn't happened already. ditto for sporting events.
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 16 August 2017 21:35 (six years ago) link