the alt-right

maybe blame the C'ville police for standing back and letting chaos reign

(guilty free speech junkie here.)

although this sort of thing doesn't come up much in NY demonstrations because we have RELATIVELY SANE GUN LAWS

I will not be moved on this point. They had a right to march and chant their garbage. They did not have a right to threaten, assault and murder people, and the city/cops/permitting agencies were wrong not to foresee and deal with them as a threat to public safety, which they are.

xp

it's almost like the laws on this are different here than in the UK

(outic otm)

also it is so bizarre to see people on the left wanting to have the gov't to take a heavier hand on limiting free speech, cuz historically it's not right-wing speech that the gov't has been eager to limit. COINTELPRO didn't target the KKK.

xp

Shakey and I being in agreement is incontrovertible proof of truth

Yeah my thing is I don't want to debate them, just want to see them at the end of a rope.

and I don't want to move you LOL, just scanned through and saw your turd of a post.

the_donald watch:

FLASHBACK: Before the "Trump-Russia" conspiracy, the DNC e-mails were widely reported as a LEAK and NOT a hack!!!VERY FAKE NEWS (archive.is)

Hope Hicks, 28, to be named new White House communications director. SHES 28! (dailymail.co.uk)

My daughter was banned from Facebook today for saying "What if I told you that you can support the president and not be a Nazi?" (self.The_Donald)

The reason "NAZIS" are being thrown around in every sentence is this...Even rag news "Salon" is reporting the DNC hack was actually a leak. 7 months of work is crashing down. Push this. (twitter.com)

BREAKING: After being caught in a lie, the FBI has decided to reopen our case into the secret Clinton-Lynch meeting.IMPORTANT (twitter.com)

WHAT JUST HAPPENED: Report is published PROVING DNC emails were LEAKED from somebody on the inside 5 days before Seth Rich was murdered. Even lefty magazines The Nation and Salon are writing articles. Left fires "white supremacist" nuke at Trump - and misses. They're desperate now. (self.The_Donald)

If only the police - whose large section sympathise with these Nazis and kill black people - would only stop these Nazis.

Just like your boy Stalin

haha

fire em and hire more black police

not gonna watch the vice thing. i've seen photos. i've seen videos. i dont want to support yet another group who has made a career profiting off the imagery of violent extremism.

imo boycott the nazi rallies. nobody shows up but news reporters. let them duke it out.

just been thinking of all the 100k+ anti-war demonstrations the media completely slept on during the Iraq war. they choose to cover things for certain reasons, mostly to stoke fear. people have accepted the lie that there isn't an anti-war left. now 350 assholes are proof that half the country wants to kill us.

shut the fuck up

my current "friends of friends" count is one dead, two injured by Nazis

"friends of friends of friends" is one dead, many injured by Nazis

just shut up

fire em and hire more black police

― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 16 August 2017 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That's easier said than done. xps

They did not have a right to threaten

I've asked this rhetorically a few times now, and maybe one of you has the constitutional law backing to help me out, but how is an armed, angry mob whose stated goals and extensive history are violent and intimidating, not innately a public safety threat? Because the right to hate speech is one thing, but an actually seditious and dangerous hate group, with a stated platform of death and destruction or at least close associations with the same, why is that not as dangerous as someone walking down the street juggling chainsaws, let alone shouting fire in a crowded theatre?

Like, if they were marching through Virginia shouting "Jews should be shot," is that covered by the 1st amendment? Because that's what you stand for if you fly a Nazi flag.

I believe it would be covered, you have to single out a person and call to action.

good overview here:

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/8/16/16153248/free-speech-nazi-first-amendment-democracy-hate-speech

i thought the law was that anyone can assemble and say anything so long as it isn't directly threatening to a person. admittedly using charged symbols is threatening but "X should be shot" is different than "we will shoot X".

I'll have to spend some time with that Vox article. I just don't understand how innately violent groups with a history of violence, armed, can show up and inevitably provoke violence. If it happens everywhere they go, again and again, eventually don't you have to stop permitting it? Or force people to stand in one cordoned off place and shout from there?

allowed: "all people with long hair should die"

not allowed: "let's kill that guy with the long hair, the one over there"

Shakey OTM. the insane & racist double standard of the cops not being aggressive & shooting rubber bullets at the neo-Nazis was disgusting. if 100s of black people marched ANYWHERE with torches, they would be shot, gassed, assaulted, etc. the police are responsible for allowing this to get out of hand. the KKK marched in Skokie, IL and they still have a right to march today.

Perfect illustration of this here in Baltimore 2 years ago: in Sandtown-Winchester, near where Freddie Gray was arrested, protestors (majority black) breaking curfew were gassed, beaten, and arrested. on the same night in Hampden, a candle-light vigil was allowed to continue half an hour past curfew, with the cops very politely asking the mostly white residents to go home. just abhorrent and plain as day.

(& just to clarify, i'm not advocating ott violence against any protestors like what we saw here in Baltimore and in Ferguson, but those cops in Charlottesville were hands off in a way that was sickeningly familiar).

I just don't understand how innately violent groups with a history of violence, armed, can show up and inevitably provoke violence

Except it's not always "inevitable." There was no violence in Skokie in '78 (?).

they def fucked up by allowing that car in. was the road not closed off?

xp Skokie march was proposed in '77 but happened in '78, yeah. no violence

The argument I have heard made, which is half-legit, is that a shit ton of the protestors were open carrying, and often better armed than the police. The defense made by the police is, hey, no shots were fired, nothing was destroyed. Which is really remarkable, if you think about it. And yet, that does not make this a success. If they felt too threatened to do their job, they should have called in the national guard. But then, if the national guard was called in and had to use force against an armed mob, I'm sure there would be many more dead or injured.

Guns, really, are what fucks up this free speech situation. The asshole gun right has done a sneaky job connecting the first and second amendments, allowing aggressive groups with first amendment rights to also claim to be defensive groups carrying guns not to intimidate but as self defense. It seems pretty circular and in some ways over-protects, constitutionally, people who are innately dangerous. Then again, the guy who hurt the most people used a car.

was the road not closed off?

there are a lot of questions around that and I haven't seen any good answers yet

no shots were fired, nothing was destroyed. Which is really remarkable, if you think about it

it really is. two days of armed rioting, not a single shot fired. i saw lots of people wearing helmets, bringing bats, clubs, mace, etc. people had come to cause some shit.

The reason people (including me) are pissed at the ACLU in this instance is not because the march happened, but because the ACLU sued to allow it to happen where it happened, and not at some more controllable park the city wanted it to happen at.

OK, so this was in the Atlantic a couple of days ago:

For decades, plans by groups like the Klan and neo-Nazis to march have been the subject of pitched battles, as towns try to bar them from coming, often to be rebuked by courts. In 1978, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Nazis could march in Skokie, Illinois, saying that flying the swastika did not constitute fighting words. Arrests at Klan-related rallies—both of Klansmen and of their critics—are not uncommon. But in recent decades, bloodshed like what occurred in Charlottesville is rarer. (Of course, Klan members and other extremists have committed incredible acts of violence, including countless lynchings of black people, away from their marches.)

Key item is the notion of "fighting words." The article also claims that bloodshed is "rarer" than arrests at these rallies, but cites nothing.

there's going to be a mass shooting at a protest of some kind eventually and it's going to be extremely grim and horrific

Hi DJP, just want to tell you how much I appreciate your presence on ILX, and also your Spotify post-election mixtape has been helping me get through these last few days, especially Ice Cube's "When Will They Shoot?" so thanks for that, too.

<3

I appreciate all of you guys, tbh, at least to some degree. This is the worst I've felt on a daily basis since the days after the election.

"at least to some degree" was not meant to be qualifying, btw, just that I know it would ultimately be healthier for me to just stay off the screen for a while, period.

btw if anyone wants to see the playlist horseshoe is talking about:

https://open.spotify.com/user/djperry1973/playlist/3kVB1Spf8xuXgfHSqcv4vr

I did a very similar one for Inauguration Day:

https://open.spotify.com/user/djperry1973/playlist/0UzUIhTNXuKCma2qML5R7U

The reason people (including me) are pissed at the ACLU in this instance is not because the march happened, but because the ACLU sued to allow it to happen where it happened, and not at some more controllable park the city wanted it to happen at.

very very otm, my sentiments exactly

I don't know enough law to have an opinion on that "controllable" stuff, but don't we wail when protestors at the GOP convention, for example, are confined to yelling in a pen 3 blocks away?

especially Ice Cube's "When Will They Shoot?"

such a monster, this track

xp fair point but this was another public park afaik

there's going to be a mass shooting at a protest of some kind eventually and it's going to be extremely grim and horrific

this seems inevitable and tbf I'm kinda surprised it hasn't happened already. ditto for sporting events.

Well, maybe congressional sporting events.

The guy who shot five police in Dallas did so at the end of a protest.