who gives a fuck about legal
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 19:26 (six years ago) link
i mean we can have a (probably dumb) conversation about whether it's good tactics to rough up right-wing marchers, that's fine. but it's probably helpful that we not confuse morality and legality
― k3vin k., Tuesday, 22 August 2017 19:27 (six years ago) link
Noam Chomsky: Antifa is a 'major gift to the right'
― tactical piñata (Sanpaku), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 19:32 (six years ago) link
Chomsky's also pro-US-intervention in Syria at the moment sooooo
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 19:35 (six years ago) link
Change the 1st amendment. By whatever means necessary.
you are a ridiculous person
regardless of this silly statement, I do think there's a legit legal argument to be made (and the ACLU would appear to agree on this point) that armed, marching groups chanting hateful rhetoric is an explicit threat of violence that should not be protected by the 1st Amendment.
xxp
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 19:36 (six years ago) link
jim otm about numbers, which is in its way a warning of potential violence. 'If you choose to get violent again, we will overwhelm' you is a pretty effective tactic.
― louie mensch (milo z), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 19:38 (six years ago) link
I do think there's a legit legal argument to be made (and the ACLU would appear to agree on this point) that armed, marching groups chanting hateful rhetoric is an explicit threat of violence
solitary posts that sum up America
― streeps of range (wins), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 19:39 (six years ago) link
stfu, Noam. next he's going to disavow Food Not Bombs.
― kurt schwitterz, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 19:40 (six years ago) link
Chomsky has been copying and pasting that exact sentiment for months (I've seen it in the same words as what the Examiner quoted as new) - I do think it's taken out of context a bit, though. He's not saying don't show up, don't counter-protest, he's saying that letting an undisciplined, tiny group run wild is tactically poor. Hard to disagree with that. 20 years on, all anyone remembers about late '90s opposition to globalization are broken Starbucks windows.
― louie mensch (milo z), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 19:41 (six years ago) link
Oh, they don't even remember that.
― Eallach mhór an duine leisg (dowd), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 19:48 (six years ago) link
The anti-globalization movement was much less in the mainstream consciousness iirc. Comparatively speaking it was fairly esoteric to most people
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 19:58 (six years ago) link
And that they were wearing Adidas trainers when they smashed the window!
Isn't the missing piece of this puzzle, about whether racists should be allowed to march, that for their part they would aggressively clamp down on expression by their enemies the minute they were able to? That they would use violence as soon as they could? They aren't just showing up to give their contribution to a discussion, but the idealistic language about freedom of expression, worthy though it is, seems to lead us into a fog on this point.
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 19:59 (six years ago) link
shakey, genuinely curious to read the ACLU position on that if you have a link
― k3vin k., Tuesday, 22 August 2017 20:00 (six years ago) link
god I have always hated this line of attack
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 20:00 (six years ago) link
Cf similar ones about how all these protesters go in to chain coffee bars to buy coffee.
xp to self - to be clear what I'm saying is that freedom of expression is clearly v important but that armed racists need to be thought of in terms of threat management rather than as if they were ppl who lie within the accepted spectrum of intent.
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 20:03 (six years ago) link
well yeah that ACLU statement was important. I agree that armed marches should not be protected
― flappy bird, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 20:05 (six years ago) link
http://thehill.com/homenews/347053-aclu-revises-policy-to-avoid-supporting-hate-groups-protesting-with-firearms
― flappy bird, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 20:07 (six years ago) link
a major difference between Charlottesville and Boston is that the former is in an open-carry state while the latter isn't. the presence of arms makes all these moral calculations a lot more complicated. they embolden the extremists and dramatically increase the chance of violence.
it was smart of the ACLU to draw that line
― rock and roll tucci coo (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 20:07 (six years ago) link
oh yeah, scanned over the crucial modifier "armed". definitely an important distinction, good for the ACLU
― k3vin k., Tuesday, 22 August 2017 20:14 (six years ago) link
voodoo chili is correct about the presence of weapons. it might or might not be wrong to strike first at people who advocate genocide but when they are all packing very deadly heat, and raising them in front of crowds while advocating for a platform of ethnic cleansing, their behavior verges into assault IMO. they pose an active danger of real harm to the most vulnerable people in the communities they descend upon.
i am still processing all this ethically tbh and i'm not quite ready to say that i'm 100% okay with beating them up before they do something even worse. but yknow i mean we're talking about screaming "you will not replace us!" to black churches while brandishing firearms. it's never simply a matter of speech with these guys - there were cases in charlottesville of nazis going after people - chases, intimidation, bullying, battery. they're trying out their program while they're speaking about it and are always on the verge of being more straightforwardly a lynch mob. might be that without violent antifa we would have seen much worse violence against local queers, PoC, etc. i don't know. i've been thinking myself in circles about this a lot this week. it's fucked.
― yellow is the color of some raisins (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 20:35 (six years ago) link
might be that without violent antifa we would have seen much worse violence against local queers, PoC, etc. i don't know
http://religiondispatches.org/dispatch-from-charlottesville-it-was-a-war-zone-it-felt-like-there-were-a-million-nazis/"Also, let me make clear that without antifa and anarchists being present in the streets, I may have been killed at the hands of fascists and white supremacists. This is important."
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 20:40 (six years ago) link
Cornel West (full disclosure: I think he is kind of nuts) said the same thing re: himself and the non-violent clergy he was there with
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 20:41 (six years ago) link
*Reads this dreck in a grown-up tone of voice*
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 20:44 (six years ago) link
I read all your posts in the voice of a 3 yo tbh
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 20:45 (six years ago) link
Chomsky manages to sound even worse than you - which is saying something.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 20:49 (six years ago) link
chomsky is bad now
― k3vin k., Tuesday, 22 August 2017 20:52 (six years ago) link
You guys don't really need to argue with the resident tankie that much
― .oO (silby), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:00 (six years ago) link
Dammit
― .oO (silby), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:01 (six years ago) link
the resident BF Skinner more like
― Neanderthal, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:03 (six years ago) link
chomsky is bad now― k3vin k., Tuesday, 22 August 2017 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― k3vin k., Tuesday, 22 August 2017 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
On this occasion, yeah. I expect better from him, but its perhaps the one occasion where you feel there is a thing to the 'ivory tower' crit - too far away from the immediate dangers.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:04 (six years ago) link
We're cooking now lads were cookin
― jk rowling obituary thread (darraghmac), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:09 (six years ago) link
Does this cook of what?
You guys don't really need to argue with the resident tankie that much― .oO (silby), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― .oO (silby), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
"Tonight, I, uh, had to kill a lot of comrades"
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/EBupU2CiEQ0/maxresdefault.jpg
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:13 (six years ago) link
life sure comes at u fast these days pic.twitter.com/ClCcSmActa— KRANG T. NELSON (@KrangTNelson) August 21, 2017
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:31 (six years ago) link
what's a tankie
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:33 (six years ago) link
Why should any private citizen initiate violence with a bunch of armed maniacs?
― Treeship, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:33 (six years ago) link
Organise ppl.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:34 (six years ago) link
apologist for communist violence particularly stalin/mao xxp
― Mordy, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:34 (six years ago) link
tankie = stalinist basically
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:40 (six years ago) link
iirc it originated in britain and was a pejorative term for hardline cpgb members who supported the russian invasions (tanks rolling in hence the name) of hungary and czechoslovakia
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:42 (six years ago) link
wait, so has bethune finally come back to us then?
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:42 (six years ago) link
iirc Silby got to know some of my mannerisms through the Castro thread
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:42 (six years ago) link
Its pretty desperate I just want Nazis dead. Although Stalin, by killing them in the end, would do a far better job than many of you.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:44 (six years ago) link
surprised you aren't disappointed in Stalin for not pre-emptively invading Nazi Germany instead of being a totally deluded pussy and then getting caught flatfooted when they started to slaughter millions of his citizens
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:46 (six years ago) link
'in the end'
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:47 (six years ago) link
you would just go on a hoo-hah about the 1st amendment as they kill us.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:48 (six years ago) link
is this larry?
― Mordy, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:50 (six years ago) link
Is this?
https://www.gq.com/story/dylann-roof-making-of-an-american-terrorist/amp
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:52 (six years ago) link
nah it's
http://taskandpurpose.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Screen-Shot-2016-06-07-at-5.05.12-PM.jpg
― Neanderthal, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:52 (six years ago) link
larry's not British
(neither is Aldo Raines btw)
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 22 August 2017 21:54 (six years ago) link