¡In-de-pen-dén-cia! - The Catalonia Independence Referendum

"we appeal to the Catalonian people to stop hitting themselves"

Seems like the Barca-Las Palmas match is off. Las Palmas had asked the Spanish FA to wear a Spanish flag on their shirts, and the FA allowed it. Oil on flames.

El País backs the government (on this as well).

Backing the government is one thing, completely fabricating information is another. I don't think El Pais has sunken to the lows of e.g. Libertad Digital (yet).

I have to say that I'm a bit irritated by the relative one-sidedness of this thread. But maybe I've been brainwashed by the relentless media coverage here. Obviously the PP has handled this whole affair very badly, but I still think one can legitimately critize the holding of this referendum.

Of course one can. And feel free to do so, to make it relatively more both-sidedness of the thread. It's not happening on its own y'know...

Yeah I mean, the handling of this is awful but I don't really know what to make of a referendum being called in this way. The mechanics or legality of one region leaving a country are pretty complex but it seems If you are part of a country you need to be given the right to hold a referendum. Perhaps this kind of reaction was what they were hoping for - it'll certainly help the independence cause.

The whole thing is p weird - like if I'm living in the region and didn't want a referendum then what does this mean for me, what would it mean if it was carried? Equally the idea of being "granted" a referendum by the ruling power is strange.

Dunno. The reaction is to be condemned for sure but the situation is pretty morally complicated.

Watching Barca-Las Palmas on telly with an empty Nou Camp is... interesting.

Yet, somehow, there still was a pitch invader.

odd article in the observer today interviewing a bunch of old catalan lefties who say this referendum is a distraction from the real issues but it was v v light on any explanation or analysis of why they thought this was so other than "lol younguns"

Pitch invader was almost as weird as Suarez tearing up his own shirt out of frustration and just... not getting back on the pitch for the last minute?

LG, you are otm. If I came across biased it is because I do think the Catalans deserve to speak out. The Catalan government sneakily pushed the needed regional legislative final vote through to make it happen, which was also nagl. Then, Spain has frustrated every attempt at dialogue about Catalan future, is making exceptions for the Basques but not them, and is just not home when Catalunya wants to talk to them.

A status quo between Spain saying "this is unconstitutional" and the Catalans saying "we have the right and need to vote" can just not stand; the two can't live together for all eternity. I think it is Madrdid's fault for not coming up with solutions, not even trying to engage with the Catalans. They've stuck their head in the sand.

I have no idea how it should have been decided, but can't fault Catalunya to finally just say: ok, we'll just go for it. Smashing it down violently certainly is the worst reaction Rajoy could have thought of.

Calling it morally complicated is an understatement.

Holding a referendum that may not be illegal or sending out a bunch of black clad stormtroopers to stop the holding of a referendum that may not be illegal - I know what looks worse to the outside world.

The Foreign Office has spoken:

"The referendum is a matter for the Spanish government and people. We want to see Spanish law and the Spanish constitution respected and the rule of law upheld. Spain is a close ally and a good friend, whose strength and unity matters to us."

(xp) may not be legal, I mean.

Makes u think xp

Feel free to crack some Catalan heads say the chaps at the FO.

this might be an interesting read. Esp. towards the end it makes some interesting points

http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_three_myths_about_catalonias_independence_movement

maybe the future of the EU will be a lot of 'pseudo' independent regions (like Catalonia) under a powerful EU state.

anyway, Catalunyan nationalists were surely hoping for this reaction, they might even like to see one true martyr. All in all, no smart moves by Rajoy. The referendum in it's original form wouldn't have reached a big majority (if it reached a majority at all).

I wonder which European region will be next, there's some rich cats in Italy, who'd like to see an independent Padania.

and just like Spain, the Italian government is rotten and corrupt.

Yep, Lega Nord already pushing for it.

yay... as I see it, and I am sure it's not an original idea, nationalism is usually a Big State mechanism to control the 'little people' with a couple of naive dreams.
So.. no real sympathy from me for this Catalonian 'independence', especially considering the fact that they are a rich region in a poor country, and also considering the fact that Catalonia is already tremendously autonomous. So really, why bother.

The Basque and Catalan regions face intimidation to this day. When Spain then, still, refuses to engage in any meaningful discussion about things, for decades, enough becomes enough. The level of autonomy then doesn't matter, to most. I can see why they desire it. You could turn it around: despite their prosperity they are striving for independence. Knowing fully well that prosperity isn't a given in the foreseeable future if they were to secede.

I agree, as I said up here, that it wasn't a given they sí vote would have won, if it all. But that was three weeks ago...

A (European, non-Spanish) friend has posted this on facebook, titled "a bit of perspective" - https://medium.com/@tripu/referendum-e53331ddf841

Spoiler: it's not a good article

So.. no real sympathy from me for this Catalonian 'independence', especially considering the fact that they are a rich region in a poor country, and also considering the fact that Catalonia is already tremendously autonomous. So really, why bother.

Oh I think a lot more people in Catalonia will be bothering after today's events.

Perspective of an immigrant who lives in Quebec: the idiocy and cruelty of one Prime Minister is not an argument for the secession of a nation, nor his having a different language, that's just some sort of ethno-nationalism, it looks petty and backwards in an increasingly multi-cultural world. On top of that the fact that they are going to create significant poverty in other regions of Spain makes the whole thing seem very very selfish. Of course democracy prevails and they should be allowed to vote without the interference of the state police, and that spanish constitution looks like a joke for this issue. Howeverve, today's event doesn't move the needle for me, at all. This is not South Sudan, there isn't enough oppression for me to justify, the HDI is higher in Catalonia than in Spain. At least Quebec had the argument that it kept lagging economically decade after decade.

Your culture is different, big whoop.

The Basque and Catalan regions face intimidation to this day.

In what way (genuine question)? I thought the Basque Country was at least fiscally autonomous. The linguistic oppression also seems to have ceased.

there isn't enough oppression for me to justify

pray tell us what the internationally agreed level of not too much oppression is?

only 400 people injured, battered by policemen and rubber bullets fired. It's OK chaps you've not reached sufficient oppression levels on the Van Horn Street Scale yet, carry on.

Your culture is different, big whoop.

You realize, I hope, that this attitude is based in a belief in the superiority of your own culture.

only 400 people injured, battered by policemen and rubber bullets fired. It's OK chaps you've not reached sufficient oppression levels on the Van Horn Street Scale yet, carry on.

― starving street dogs of punk rock (Odysseus), Sunday, October 1, 2017 4:45 PM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

So you would transform the lives of millions of spaniards for present and future generations over the stupidity and cruelty of one prime minister? If you think so, good for you. I don't. Perhaps I didn't express myself correctly, but I mean that personally the events of today don't change my opinion that secession of Catalonia is a bad idea and that I would vote no. If the Catalans people decided en masse that they believe it is better for them good, I think it should be respected as such by the government, but I would still consider it to be a selfish and petty political play.

pray tell us what the internationally agreed level of not too much oppression is?

― starving street dogs of punk rock (Odysseus), Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:42 PM (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Was going to say.. So glad someone did what noone else on earth was capable of until now: 'measuring' oppression and saying when it's called or uncalled for. One of ilx no less.

The Basque and Catalan regions face intimidation to this day.

In what way (genuine question)? I thought the Basque Country was at least fiscally autonomous. The linguistic oppression also seems to have ceased.

― groovemaaan, Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:24 PM (forty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Basque country is fiscally autonomous. Catalunya wanted the same for a long time, but Madrid refuses. Linguistic oppression is p much ceased, yes.

Some examples:

- Both in Catalunya and Basque country - who both have their own police - the Guardia Civil still patrols. Not needed (nor wanted), but they do. They apprehend Basque and Catalan people way more often. There are countless stories (also from friends of mine from both regions) where they'll be pulled over, have their license etc checked, not in offense, but kept on the side of the road for an hour or two. Not allowed to phone, just for no reason at all. If you protest they'll arrest you, so most just sit it out.
- When I was over in June there was a much publicized pub brawl on a Saturday night. Two guys got into a fight fight, both drunk. One was a Spaniard. He got a fine of like 70 euros. The other was Basque, and was charged with 'a terrorist act'. He's been locked away awaiting trial ever since iirc.
- 'Madrid', a couple of times every year, has tanks and military personel drive through both Catalunya and Basque Country. It's not a "parade" as we know it. It's merely to intimidate and show who's in charge.
- The now defunct ETA (they handed in all their weapons in April) is still a stick with which Madrid beats the Basques. They have put the mostly already innocent prisoners charged with ETA ties in prisons as far away from Basque Country as can be. Cadiz and the likes. People from Basque Country have asked Madrid for years now for 'Etxera' - bring them home. Not to be freed, but at least in a prison more nearby. Now, if family wants to visit them, it takes them renting a coach and all weekend back and to, to see them the allowed hour a week. This is not clear oppression maybe, but it's to taunt and make things as inconvenient within the boundaries of the law as possible.
- Final example: Guardia Civil also patrols cafe's and bars, mostly in very small villages, after midnight. Now technically, they've the law on their side, for some places have to be shut after midnight. What they do - and I was sitting on a terrace when this happened, utterly confused - is they drive by reallll slow. They just look at you and the people, then turn a corner. Everyone packed up like there'd been a tornado, within three minutes a lively terrace with drinks, hurting noone, was gone. Chairs and tables literally thrown inside and the fence shut down. Two minutes after that the GC drove past again. Stopped. Checked with flashlights to see if the place really was abandoned, and then left. Next day a villager came to me to explain what the hell happened: if they drive by the second time and the plaxe isn't completely shut, they arrest the owner of the place. Again: might be within the law, but it's the strictest reading of it, and it *only* happens in small places in Catalunya and Basque Country.

Your culture is different, big whoop.

¡No pasarán!

http://i.imgur.com/qbP4oSX.png

The Spanish Association of Accredited Abortion Clinics estimated that about 100,000 of the 118,000 abortions carried out in 2012 would be illegal under the new legislation. The revision was part of the 2011 election manifesto of the Party Popular, which, strongly influenced by the Roman Catholic church, was vigorously opposed by most opposition parties and women's groups, who saw it as an attack on women's rights.

http://www.executedtoday.com/images/Sacred_Heart_Christ_statue_executed.jpg

propaganda photo iirc

Some 6,832 Catholic clergy were killed, mostly in the summer of 1936. At least 38,000 in the Red Terror. At least 200,000 in Franco's subsequent White Terror. There was no lack of real animosity.

^ At least 38,000 total in the Red...

Aside: the enthusiasm seen when extras sing "The Internationale" in Doctor Zhivago, that's all real. Most knew it by heart when David Lean filmed in Spain, 25 years after the war.

90% vote for independence.

I imagine the turnout wasn't exactly great.

pray tell us what the internationally agreed level of not too much oppression is?

Whatever it is I would imagine those selfish bastards the Scots fell well short of it, the nerve of them trying to break up the glorious United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Gawd Bless Her Britannic Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, huzzah!

nationalism and nation-states are dangerous bullshit concepts, except the nation-states that already happened to exist at whichever arbitrary point in time we want to set the clock. those must endure forever until the end of time. if they do murderous and repressive things in response to long-pent-up acts of defiance then probably the defiant people did something or other to deserve it. actually probably they even really want it to happen because they are evil and worship death. look it even says so in the papers.

sanpaku i know and agree, i am not intending to suggest that one staged photo erases other things that did in fact happen (some much worse)

so absolutely no concern on how this might affect the poor autonomonies of Andalusia or Extremadura?

i support substate national movements as a rule unless they're trying to create an ethno-state

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, September 18, 2017 5:14 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Why?

this is more like when Westmount seceded from the City of Montreal to prevent poors from taking books out of their library than Quebec independence tbh

so absolutely no concern on how this might affect the poor autonomonies of Andalusia or Extremadura?

Should Scots stick around in the UK because there are regions of England that are much poorer than Scotland? Even if they think the concept of the UK is a busted flush of a country whose 'values' they no longer share?

yeah I don't accept the argument against independence that it would impoverish other poor parts of Spain. annexing Morocco would improve the poverty of Morocco, is that an argument for annexing Morocco?

state legitimacy is a very complicated set of hypotheticals, but the de facto legitimacy definitely comes from the barrel of a police gun

It's not an abstract concern, imo - there are people in Padania, Bavaria, London, California and Donetesk, who all make an argument that they'd be better off without the millstone of the rest of the country around their necks and some form of solidarity with the people hit by the potential economic impact of that is a reason to reconsider, albeit not necessarily a reason to rule it out. A future of wealthy microstates surrounded by great swathes of unemployment and poverty isn't unthinkable.

the UK is almost already a wealthy microstate surrounded by etc

We already have a world of wealthy states surrounded by great swathes of unemployment and poverty: this is western Europe's relation to Africa, for instance. Is the potential economic impact of recolonizing e.g. Algeria a reason to consider its recolonization?