¡In-de-pen-dén-cia! - The Catalonia Independence Referendum

Your culture is different, big whoop.

You realize, I hope, that this attitude is based in a belief in the superiority of your own culture.

only 400 people injured, battered by policemen and rubber bullets fired. It's OK chaps you've not reached sufficient oppression levels on the Van Horn Street Scale yet, carry on.

― starving street dogs of punk rock (Odysseus), Sunday, October 1, 2017 4:45 PM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

So you would transform the lives of millions of spaniards for present and future generations over the stupidity and cruelty of one prime minister? If you think so, good for you. I don't. Perhaps I didn't express myself correctly, but I mean that personally the events of today don't change my opinion that secession of Catalonia is a bad idea and that I would vote no. If the Catalans people decided en masse that they believe it is better for them good, I think it should be respected as such by the government, but I would still consider it to be a selfish and petty political play.

pray tell us what the internationally agreed level of not too much oppression is?

― starving street dogs of punk rock (Odysseus), Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:42 PM (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Was going to say.. So glad someone did what noone else on earth was capable of until now: 'measuring' oppression and saying when it's called or uncalled for. One of ilx no less.

The Basque and Catalan regions face intimidation to this day.

In what way (genuine question)? I thought the Basque Country was at least fiscally autonomous. The linguistic oppression also seems to have ceased.

― groovemaaan, Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:24 PM (forty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Basque country is fiscally autonomous. Catalunya wanted the same for a long time, but Madrid refuses. Linguistic oppression is p much ceased, yes.

Some examples:

- Both in Catalunya and Basque country - who both have their own police - the Guardia Civil still patrols. Not needed (nor wanted), but they do. They apprehend Basque and Catalan people way more often. There are countless stories (also from friends of mine from both regions) where they'll be pulled over, have their license etc checked, not in offense, but kept on the side of the road for an hour or two. Not allowed to phone, just for no reason at all. If you protest they'll arrest you, so most just sit it out.
- When I was over in June there was a much publicized pub brawl on a Saturday night. Two guys got into a fight fight, both drunk. One was a Spaniard. He got a fine of like 70 euros. The other was Basque, and was charged with 'a terrorist act'. He's been locked away awaiting trial ever since iirc.
- 'Madrid', a couple of times every year, has tanks and military personel drive through both Catalunya and Basque Country. It's not a "parade" as we know it. It's merely to intimidate and show who's in charge.
- The now defunct ETA (they handed in all their weapons in April) is still a stick with which Madrid beats the Basques. They have put the mostly already innocent prisoners charged with ETA ties in prisons as far away from Basque Country as can be. Cadiz and the likes. People from Basque Country have asked Madrid for years now for 'Etxera' - bring them home. Not to be freed, but at least in a prison more nearby. Now, if family wants to visit them, it takes them renting a coach and all weekend back and to, to see them the allowed hour a week. This is not clear oppression maybe, but it's to taunt and make things as inconvenient within the boundaries of the law as possible.
- Final example: Guardia Civil also patrols cafe's and bars, mostly in very small villages, after midnight. Now technically, they've the law on their side, for some places have to be shut after midnight. What they do - and I was sitting on a terrace when this happened, utterly confused - is they drive by reallll slow. They just look at you and the people, then turn a corner. Everyone packed up like there'd been a tornado, within three minutes a lively terrace with drinks, hurting noone, was gone. Chairs and tables literally thrown inside and the fence shut down. Two minutes after that the GC drove past again. Stopped. Checked with flashlights to see if the place really was abandoned, and then left. Next day a villager came to me to explain what the hell happened: if they drive by the second time and the plaxe isn't completely shut, they arrest the owner of the place. Again: might be within the law, but it's the strictest reading of it, and it *only* happens in small places in Catalunya and Basque Country.

Your culture is different, big whoop.

¡No pasarán!

http://i.imgur.com/qbP4oSX.png

The Spanish Association of Accredited Abortion Clinics estimated that about 100,000 of the 118,000 abortions carried out in 2012 would be illegal under the new legislation. The revision was part of the 2011 election manifesto of the Party Popular, which, strongly influenced by the Roman Catholic church, was vigorously opposed by most opposition parties and women's groups, who saw it as an attack on women's rights.

http://www.executedtoday.com/images/Sacred_Heart_Christ_statue_executed.jpg

propaganda photo iirc

Some 6,832 Catholic clergy were killed, mostly in the summer of 1936. At least 38,000 in the Red Terror. At least 200,000 in Franco's subsequent White Terror. There was no lack of real animosity.

^ At least 38,000 total in the Red...

Aside: the enthusiasm seen when extras sing "The Internationale" in Doctor Zhivago, that's all real. Most knew it by heart when David Lean filmed in Spain, 25 years after the war.

90% vote for independence.

I imagine the turnout wasn't exactly great.

pray tell us what the internationally agreed level of not too much oppression is?

Whatever it is I would imagine those selfish bastards the Scots fell well short of it, the nerve of them trying to break up the glorious United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Gawd Bless Her Britannic Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, huzzah!

nationalism and nation-states are dangerous bullshit concepts, except the nation-states that already happened to exist at whichever arbitrary point in time we want to set the clock. those must endure forever until the end of time. if they do murderous and repressive things in response to long-pent-up acts of defiance then probably the defiant people did something or other to deserve it. actually probably they even really want it to happen because they are evil and worship death. look it even says so in the papers.

sanpaku i know and agree, i am not intending to suggest that one staged photo erases other things that did in fact happen (some much worse)

so absolutely no concern on how this might affect the poor autonomonies of Andalusia or Extremadura?

i support substate national movements as a rule unless they're trying to create an ethno-state

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, September 18, 2017 5:14 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Why?

this is more like when Westmount seceded from the City of Montreal to prevent poors from taking books out of their library than Quebec independence tbh

so absolutely no concern on how this might affect the poor autonomonies of Andalusia or Extremadura?

Should Scots stick around in the UK because there are regions of England that are much poorer than Scotland? Even if they think the concept of the UK is a busted flush of a country whose 'values' they no longer share?

yeah I don't accept the argument against independence that it would impoverish other poor parts of Spain. annexing Morocco would improve the poverty of Morocco, is that an argument for annexing Morocco?

state legitimacy is a very complicated set of hypotheticals, but the de facto legitimacy definitely comes from the barrel of a police gun

It's not an abstract concern, imo - there are people in Padania, Bavaria, London, California and Donetesk, who all make an argument that they'd be better off without the millstone of the rest of the country around their necks and some form of solidarity with the people hit by the potential economic impact of that is a reason to reconsider, albeit not necessarily a reason to rule it out. A future of wealthy microstates surrounded by great swathes of unemployment and poverty isn't unthinkable.

the UK is almost already a wealthy microstate surrounded by etc

We already have a world of wealthy states surrounded by great swathes of unemployment and poverty: this is western Europe's relation to Africa, for instance. Is the potential economic impact of recolonizing e.g. Algeria a reason to consider its recolonization?

Not sure if you've seen an non-Pangaea atlas recently..

xp Almost the entire history of colonisation is extracting wealth, not sharing it.

I'm not opposed to Catalan independence per se but if the current format of the nation state has a value, part of that value is ensuring that international economic hubs don't float off into their own orbit and make some contribution to a larger group.

If an independent Catalonia is a microstate, than so are Bulgaria, Denmark and Libya, all with smaller populations.

The historical formation of macrostates seems driven by fear of other predatory states and dynastic prestige. The current hedgemon meddles and stirs hornets' nests, but isn't exactly predatory. The runners-up are fairly isolationist. International tariff unions, multinational corporations, and even metric standards provide economies of scale that once required larger states. My fear, should the world devolve into 500 nations (rather than the current 100 and 100+ microstates), has less to do with the flight of wealth from welfare commitments, than the lack of any counter to the power of multinationals. Then again, politicians in even our largest states are readily bought.

xp But why should that contribution be to the larger group to which they presently belong, rather than to some different or yet larger group that includes developing world nations? If goodwill toward others is what's to drive "nation" formation, then which "others" are the relevant ones?

very interesting discussion, and it remains a very interesting 'case' for the European future.

yesterday got me all thinking about the 'lure' or the 'illusion' of 'independencia'. Like, as humans we know all too well we aren't independent or free at all, on so many levels. We are chained to our bodies, Nietschze killed 'free will' (and it always was a concept created in the Enlightenment), also in the modern globalized capitalistic world, we are even less free. Just work slaves. Now, to me this all explains our sympathy for any struggle for independence, who doesn't love that... but in what way would a 'free' Catalonia, and its citizens, be any more free than is is (or they are) now. To me, these struggles seem kinda naive and useless. I would rather have people spending their energy on 'empowering' their neighbourhood, thus, on a more basic level. Also, a guy like Puigdemont, would be a Rajoy if he was born in Madrid. Simple as that.

it looks petty and backwards in an increasingly multi-cultural world.

These arguments only make sense for me if you're pushing for a One World State; otherwise, there is no reason to find Catalunya wanting independence more backwards than, say, Spain and France not spontaneously merging into one nation (or the US and Canada, come to that).

politicians in even our largest states are readily bought

yes. I see the argument for microstates as offering less resistance to multinational corporations but it's possible that the opposite is true - macrostates centralize power and control so many more communities, regions, polities that they may offer a more efficient form of government for multinationals to exploit: fewer people to influence, larger rewards for exploiting that influence

as I was trenchantly hinting at earlier, the independence problem is only a one-eyed way of formulating the far more intricate problems of state legitimacy. to say "by what right should Catalonia exist?" has no more value than asking "by what right should Spain exist?"

Los periodistas de TVE se plantan en Torrespaña contra la manipulación del 1-O con carteles de "vergüenza" https://t.co/i1mtHgZcJP pic.twitter.com/CeIiFFVnIB

— eldiario.es (@eldiarioes) October 2, 2017

Remarkable: jorunalists of the national public broadcaster of Spain, TVE, are protesting this morning against their own "biased" reporting, "down playing" the GC violence, holding up signs in Spanish and Catalan saying they feel "ashamed"

from yesterday

Firefighters now protecting people from Spanish police#CatalanReferendum pic.twitter.com/i5gZ5hIz1k

— Gissur Simonarson (@GissiSim) October 1, 2017

as I was trenchantly hinting at earlier, the independence problem is only a one-eyed way of formulating the far more intricate problems of state legitimacy. to say "by what right should Catalonia exist?" has no more value than asking "by what right should Spain exist?"

I disagree. The coherence & integrity of current sovereign states - in light of the alternative (chaos) - has inherent value that needs not justify itself. By contrast, asking for sovereignty for a new state that would undermine the coherence of a current state requires, imo, an exceptional case to be made. nb obv there are some priors here (about the desirability of states) that some (anarchists?) prob can't get onboard with.

that's the classic argument against any sort of dramatic political upheaval but it obviously serves the powerful and leads to political decay

The coherence & integrity of current sovereign states - in light of the alternative (chaos) - has inherent value that needs not justify itself.

That would mean the current status is always preferable to anything else. Would you say this in, say, ten years after Russia annexed Crimea, and go: "well there's a coherence now, changing it would probably lead to chaos." Where to draw the line? When is one a coherent and sovereign state? Spain is only a democracy (in name) since 1975. Not trolling, just think it's very hard to carve along these loose lines.

Ogmor otm

It only means that the case for disembodying a state requires a more significant argument than the case for leaving one intact. it doesn't mean the status quo is always preferable.

seems like there has been a pretty significant argument and then both sides of the debate decided to show their ass

Does make more sense. Still a slippery slope though. xp

Ya Tombot otm

I'd vote this as the best take on the weekend's events I've read so far, English-language at least. And yes, it's on Deadspin.

https://deadspin.com/catalonia-explodes-1819044747

It's not bad. Sports angle seems a bit forced, probably to make sense of it for a USA audience, but that can be forgiven. Going back to Germany WOI and WOII in the end is more problematic; at the very least a very poorly executed throwback to world war, to comment on this specific event. Jumping from "To get an idea, imagine Mitt Romney and, say, Jill Stein in the same political alliance. The only thing that binds them is a shared sense of nationalism." to 1930s Germany misses a whole slew of finer points at play here tbh.

I suspected much was elided, so thank you for that. (The longer leaps are imaginative as you note, though I feel not totally irrelevant.) The sports angle is definitely the hook/reason it's on the site, but I think that's useful (no less useful than explaining what kneeling during the anthem was about, say).

I suppose we should be grateful he didn't mention Shakira.

I have a soft spot for Waka Waka, great tune is that!

No, as I said, it's not a bad piece Ned. Esp not if it's an entrance piece for most of the readers.

Not a good time for a Spanish holiday

i support substate national movements as a rule unless they're trying to create an ethno-state
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, September 18, 2017 5:14 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Why?

― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Sunday, October 1, 2017 6:54 PM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well i should have qualified it a bit more, i support the right to secede via referenda as has been allowed to sub-state national movements in Quebec and Scotland.

the Spanish government could've allowed a referendum and Si would've probably lost. Now unthinkable that Catalunya won't be independent sooner or later due to Spain's actions.

Spanish king cracking down hard on the referendum. So, they're really trying to break-up here, I guess. oh what a wonderful Machiavellian world.

and no mention of the police violence for at least a bit of balance.