¡In-de-pen-dén-cia! - The Catalonia Independence Referendum

90% vote for independence.

I imagine the turnout wasn't exactly great.

pray tell us what the internationally agreed level of not too much oppression is?

Whatever it is I would imagine those selfish bastards the Scots fell well short of it, the nerve of them trying to break up the glorious United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Gawd Bless Her Britannic Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, huzzah!

nationalism and nation-states are dangerous bullshit concepts, except the nation-states that already happened to exist at whichever arbitrary point in time we want to set the clock. those must endure forever until the end of time. if they do murderous and repressive things in response to long-pent-up acts of defiance then probably the defiant people did something or other to deserve it. actually probably they even really want it to happen because they are evil and worship death. look it even says so in the papers.

sanpaku i know and agree, i am not intending to suggest that one staged photo erases other things that did in fact happen (some much worse)

so absolutely no concern on how this might affect the poor autonomonies of Andalusia or Extremadura?

i support substate national movements as a rule unless they're trying to create an ethno-state

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, September 18, 2017 5:14 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Why?

this is more like when Westmount seceded from the City of Montreal to prevent poors from taking books out of their library than Quebec independence tbh

so absolutely no concern on how this might affect the poor autonomonies of Andalusia or Extremadura?

Should Scots stick around in the UK because there are regions of England that are much poorer than Scotland? Even if they think the concept of the UK is a busted flush of a country whose 'values' they no longer share?

yeah I don't accept the argument against independence that it would impoverish other poor parts of Spain. annexing Morocco would improve the poverty of Morocco, is that an argument for annexing Morocco?

state legitimacy is a very complicated set of hypotheticals, but the de facto legitimacy definitely comes from the barrel of a police gun

It's not an abstract concern, imo - there are people in Padania, Bavaria, London, California and Donetesk, who all make an argument that they'd be better off without the millstone of the rest of the country around their necks and some form of solidarity with the people hit by the potential economic impact of that is a reason to reconsider, albeit not necessarily a reason to rule it out. A future of wealthy microstates surrounded by great swathes of unemployment and poverty isn't unthinkable.

the UK is almost already a wealthy microstate surrounded by etc

We already have a world of wealthy states surrounded by great swathes of unemployment and poverty: this is western Europe's relation to Africa, for instance. Is the potential economic impact of recolonizing e.g. Algeria a reason to consider its recolonization?

Not sure if you've seen an non-Pangaea atlas recently..

xp Almost the entire history of colonisation is extracting wealth, not sharing it.

I'm not opposed to Catalan independence per se but if the current format of the nation state has a value, part of that value is ensuring that international economic hubs don't float off into their own orbit and make some contribution to a larger group.

If an independent Catalonia is a microstate, than so are Bulgaria, Denmark and Libya, all with smaller populations.

The historical formation of macrostates seems driven by fear of other predatory states and dynastic prestige. The current hedgemon meddles and stirs hornets' nests, but isn't exactly predatory. The runners-up are fairly isolationist. International tariff unions, multinational corporations, and even metric standards provide economies of scale that once required larger states. My fear, should the world devolve into 500 nations (rather than the current 100 and 100+ microstates), has less to do with the flight of wealth from welfare commitments, than the lack of any counter to the power of multinationals. Then again, politicians in even our largest states are readily bought.

xp But why should that contribution be to the larger group to which they presently belong, rather than to some different or yet larger group that includes developing world nations? If goodwill toward others is what's to drive "nation" formation, then which "others" are the relevant ones?

very interesting discussion, and it remains a very interesting 'case' for the European future.

yesterday got me all thinking about the 'lure' or the 'illusion' of 'independencia'. Like, as humans we know all too well we aren't independent or free at all, on so many levels. We are chained to our bodies, Nietschze killed 'free will' (and it always was a concept created in the Enlightenment), also in the modern globalized capitalistic world, we are even less free. Just work slaves. Now, to me this all explains our sympathy for any struggle for independence, who doesn't love that... but in what way would a 'free' Catalonia, and its citizens, be any more free than is is (or they are) now. To me, these struggles seem kinda naive and useless. I would rather have people spending their energy on 'empowering' their neighbourhood, thus, on a more basic level. Also, a guy like Puigdemont, would be a Rajoy if he was born in Madrid. Simple as that.

it looks petty and backwards in an increasingly multi-cultural world.

These arguments only make sense for me if you're pushing for a One World State; otherwise, there is no reason to find Catalunya wanting independence more backwards than, say, Spain and France not spontaneously merging into one nation (or the US and Canada, come to that).

politicians in even our largest states are readily bought

yes. I see the argument for microstates as offering less resistance to multinational corporations but it's possible that the opposite is true - macrostates centralize power and control so many more communities, regions, polities that they may offer a more efficient form of government for multinationals to exploit: fewer people to influence, larger rewards for exploiting that influence

as I was trenchantly hinting at earlier, the independence problem is only a one-eyed way of formulating the far more intricate problems of state legitimacy. to say "by what right should Catalonia exist?" has no more value than asking "by what right should Spain exist?"

Los periodistas de TVE se plantan en Torrespaña contra la manipulación del 1-O con carteles de "vergüenza" https://t.co/i1mtHgZcJP pic.twitter.com/CeIiFFVnIB

— eldiario.es (@eldiarioes) October 2, 2017

Remarkable: jorunalists of the national public broadcaster of Spain, TVE, are protesting this morning against their own "biased" reporting, "down playing" the GC violence, holding up signs in Spanish and Catalan saying they feel "ashamed"

from yesterday

Firefighters now protecting people from Spanish police#CatalanReferendum pic.twitter.com/i5gZ5hIz1k

— Gissur Simonarson (@GissiSim) October 1, 2017

as I was trenchantly hinting at earlier, the independence problem is only a one-eyed way of formulating the far more intricate problems of state legitimacy. to say "by what right should Catalonia exist?" has no more value than asking "by what right should Spain exist?"

I disagree. The coherence & integrity of current sovereign states - in light of the alternative (chaos) - has inherent value that needs not justify itself. By contrast, asking for sovereignty for a new state that would undermine the coherence of a current state requires, imo, an exceptional case to be made. nb obv there are some priors here (about the desirability of states) that some (anarchists?) prob can't get onboard with.

that's the classic argument against any sort of dramatic political upheaval but it obviously serves the powerful and leads to political decay

The coherence & integrity of current sovereign states - in light of the alternative (chaos) - has inherent value that needs not justify itself.

That would mean the current status is always preferable to anything else. Would you say this in, say, ten years after Russia annexed Crimea, and go: "well there's a coherence now, changing it would probably lead to chaos." Where to draw the line? When is one a coherent and sovereign state? Spain is only a democracy (in name) since 1975. Not trolling, just think it's very hard to carve along these loose lines.

Ogmor otm

It only means that the case for disembodying a state requires a more significant argument than the case for leaving one intact. it doesn't mean the status quo is always preferable.

seems like there has been a pretty significant argument and then both sides of the debate decided to show their ass

Does make more sense. Still a slippery slope though. xp

Ya Tombot otm

I'd vote this as the best take on the weekend's events I've read so far, English-language at least. And yes, it's on Deadspin.

https://deadspin.com/catalonia-explodes-1819044747

It's not bad. Sports angle seems a bit forced, probably to make sense of it for a USA audience, but that can be forgiven. Going back to Germany WOI and WOII in the end is more problematic; at the very least a very poorly executed throwback to world war, to comment on this specific event. Jumping from "To get an idea, imagine Mitt Romney and, say, Jill Stein in the same political alliance. The only thing that binds them is a shared sense of nationalism." to 1930s Germany misses a whole slew of finer points at play here tbh.

I suspected much was elided, so thank you for that. (The longer leaps are imaginative as you note, though I feel not totally irrelevant.) The sports angle is definitely the hook/reason it's on the site, but I think that's useful (no less useful than explaining what kneeling during the anthem was about, say).

I suppose we should be grateful he didn't mention Shakira.

I have a soft spot for Waka Waka, great tune is that!

No, as I said, it's not a bad piece Ned. Esp not if it's an entrance piece for most of the readers.

Not a good time for a Spanish holiday

i support substate national movements as a rule unless they're trying to create an ethno-state
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, September 18, 2017 5:14 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Why?

― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Sunday, October 1, 2017 6:54 PM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well i should have qualified it a bit more, i support the right to secede via referenda as has been allowed to sub-state national movements in Quebec and Scotland.

the Spanish government could've allowed a referendum and Si would've probably lost. Now unthinkable that Catalunya won't be independent sooner or later due to Spain's actions.

Spanish king cracking down hard on the referendum. So, they're really trying to break-up here, I guess. oh what a wonderful Machiavellian world.

and no mention of the police violence for at least a bit of balance.

Fuck a King obviously.

honest question: do Spanish people care about the current king? I know the last one was pretty popular before all the elephant stuff.

I assume the seperatists are not hugely invested in his opinion one way or the other

Truly a king of all the people. Can't say I'm surprised, but this was fierce yo. Ludo otm.

I don't think people care a lot about the king. They've had their share of scandals like every other monarchy etc. It's probably the shock of seeing him choose sides, not even trying to balance things a bit. It's for the best to know where he stands tho.

Spain are playing on Friday too, could be interesting.

whom better to give lessons on democracy than uh...the king https://t.co/qiWU5TUu3Y

— KRANG TEEN NELSON (@KrangTNelson) October 3, 2017

Independence declared in the Catalan parliament.

beat me to it.

a couple of weeks too late I'd say, at least, for the momentum of the movement.

Anway, we'll see how much jail time Puigdemont will do. Ecuador might lend a helping hand again, I guess.

Up to 30 years of jail time possible iirc. No way Madrid will hold back.