¡In-de-pen-dén-cia! - The Catalonia Independence Referendum

politicians in even our largest states are readily bought

yes. I see the argument for microstates as offering less resistance to multinational corporations but it's possible that the opposite is true - macrostates centralize power and control so many more communities, regions, polities that they may offer a more efficient form of government for multinationals to exploit: fewer people to influence, larger rewards for exploiting that influence

as I was trenchantly hinting at earlier, the independence problem is only a one-eyed way of formulating the far more intricate problems of state legitimacy. to say "by what right should Catalonia exist?" has no more value than asking "by what right should Spain exist?"

Los periodistas de TVE se plantan en Torrespaña contra la manipulación del 1-O con carteles de "vergüenza" https://t.co/i1mtHgZcJP pic.twitter.com/CeIiFFVnIB

— eldiario.es (@eldiarioes) October 2, 2017

Remarkable: jorunalists of the national public broadcaster of Spain, TVE, are protesting this morning against their own "biased" reporting, "down playing" the GC violence, holding up signs in Spanish and Catalan saying they feel "ashamed"

from yesterday

Firefighters now protecting people from Spanish police#CatalanReferendum pic.twitter.com/i5gZ5hIz1k

— Gissur Simonarson (@GissiSim) October 1, 2017

as I was trenchantly hinting at earlier, the independence problem is only a one-eyed way of formulating the far more intricate problems of state legitimacy. to say "by what right should Catalonia exist?" has no more value than asking "by what right should Spain exist?"

I disagree. The coherence & integrity of current sovereign states - in light of the alternative (chaos) - has inherent value that needs not justify itself. By contrast, asking for sovereignty for a new state that would undermine the coherence of a current state requires, imo, an exceptional case to be made. nb obv there are some priors here (about the desirability of states) that some (anarchists?) prob can't get onboard with.

that's the classic argument against any sort of dramatic political upheaval but it obviously serves the powerful and leads to political decay

The coherence & integrity of current sovereign states - in light of the alternative (chaos) - has inherent value that needs not justify itself.

That would mean the current status is always preferable to anything else. Would you say this in, say, ten years after Russia annexed Crimea, and go: "well there's a coherence now, changing it would probably lead to chaos." Where to draw the line? When is one a coherent and sovereign state? Spain is only a democracy (in name) since 1975. Not trolling, just think it's very hard to carve along these loose lines.

Ogmor otm

It only means that the case for disembodying a state requires a more significant argument than the case for leaving one intact. it doesn't mean the status quo is always preferable.

seems like there has been a pretty significant argument and then both sides of the debate decided to show their ass

Does make more sense. Still a slippery slope though. xp

Ya Tombot otm

I'd vote this as the best take on the weekend's events I've read so far, English-language at least. And yes, it's on Deadspin.

https://deadspin.com/catalonia-explodes-1819044747

It's not bad. Sports angle seems a bit forced, probably to make sense of it for a USA audience, but that can be forgiven. Going back to Germany WOI and WOII in the end is more problematic; at the very least a very poorly executed throwback to world war, to comment on this specific event. Jumping from "To get an idea, imagine Mitt Romney and, say, Jill Stein in the same political alliance. The only thing that binds them is a shared sense of nationalism." to 1930s Germany misses a whole slew of finer points at play here tbh.

I suspected much was elided, so thank you for that. (The longer leaps are imaginative as you note, though I feel not totally irrelevant.) The sports angle is definitely the hook/reason it's on the site, but I think that's useful (no less useful than explaining what kneeling during the anthem was about, say).

I suppose we should be grateful he didn't mention Shakira.

I have a soft spot for Waka Waka, great tune is that!

No, as I said, it's not a bad piece Ned. Esp not if it's an entrance piece for most of the readers.

Not a good time for a Spanish holiday

i support substate national movements as a rule unless they're trying to create an ethno-state
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, September 18, 2017 5:14 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Why?

― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Sunday, October 1, 2017 6:54 PM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well i should have qualified it a bit more, i support the right to secede via referenda as has been allowed to sub-state national movements in Quebec and Scotland.

the Spanish government could've allowed a referendum and Si would've probably lost. Now unthinkable that Catalunya won't be independent sooner or later due to Spain's actions.

Spanish king cracking down hard on the referendum. So, they're really trying to break-up here, I guess. oh what a wonderful Machiavellian world.

and no mention of the police violence for at least a bit of balance.

Fuck a King obviously.

honest question: do Spanish people care about the current king? I know the last one was pretty popular before all the elephant stuff.

I assume the seperatists are not hugely invested in his opinion one way or the other

Truly a king of all the people. Can't say I'm surprised, but this was fierce yo. Ludo otm.

I don't think people care a lot about the king. They've had their share of scandals like every other monarchy etc. It's probably the shock of seeing him choose sides, not even trying to balance things a bit. It's for the best to know where he stands tho.

Spain are playing on Friday too, could be interesting.

whom better to give lessons on democracy than uh...the king https://t.co/qiWU5TUu3Y

— KRANG TEEN NELSON (@KrangTNelson) October 3, 2017

Independence declared in the Catalan parliament.

beat me to it.

a couple of weeks too late I'd say, at least, for the momentum of the movement.

Anway, we'll see how much jail time Puigdemont will do. Ecuador might lend a helping hand again, I guess.

Up to 30 years of jail time possible iirc. No way Madrid will hold back.

this is going to be very messy i feel

senate in Madrid votes for direct rule of Catalunya

The independent Catalan State in 1934 lasted about 10 hours, and lead to 74 people being killed. Let's hope it doesn't come to anything like that, but I wouldn't bet on anything tbh

we were very close to moving there last year. feeling pretty good about our final decision to say here at this point .

here's to good feelings

the in-laws seem to be having fun atm
https://streamable.com/155yi

Puigdemont and people from parliament will probably be arrested. But for scope: there are 300,000 civil servants alone. Good luck to Madrid trying to get them to do what you want.

i really am worried about bloodshed.

Obviously NATO and/or the EU will step in NB sarcasm

Sadly otm. It's the same meaningless 'pls to be civil kay amigos? bye lol'.

is open warfare a possibility/likelihood? I mean I can see the Madrid gov't sending in troops/police and doing some martial law shit, but do the Catalonians actually have arms they could take up? would we be looking at some kind guerilla insurgency?

the mossos d'esquadra - catalan police force - are divided on issue of independence and estranged from the spanish guardia civil

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia-mossos-analy/demoralized-and-divided-inside-catalonias-police-force-idUSKBN1CT2MT

there are no paramilitary orgs

yet

getting a paramilitary org together takes some doing mind, and usually requires both foreign sponsorship and a concentrated urban, working-class base in specific geographical areas which become strongholds (catalunya doesn't really have this)

Demonstrations in Barcelona today for unity with Spain... 300,000 people according to the Guardia Urbana, 1.3 million according to organisers/supporters. Sounds a large turnout whatever the true figure.

I've been really struggling to clarify my thoughts on the situation lately, after discussions with my Spanish teachers and my Spanish partner have questioned some of my previous conceptions.

Everyone's seems to have forgotten about this but the regional election count is on.

i haven't forgotten.

seems there will probably be a spanish nationalist majority.

My Catalan colleague was extremely disappointed that I'd forgotten :(

(xp) I would expect so.