it's solely the book excerpts afaict
― Daniel_Rf, Saturday, 28 October 2017 11:46 (six years ago) link
No it's not. They said the same thing in interviews back then: http://observer.com/2000/06/from-russia-with-lust/
― Frederik B, Saturday, 28 October 2017 11:56 (six years ago) link
“Russian women, especially on the first date, expect you to rape them,” said Mr. Ames. “They’ll go back home with you and say, ‘No, no, no,’ and if you’re an American, you’ve been trained to respect the ‘No,’ because you’re afraid of sexual harassment or date rape, and so you fail over and over. But it took me a while to learn you really have to force Russian girls, and that’s what they want, it’s like a mock rape. And then you come back here and you’re really freaked out–because you don’t know if that actually exists deep in all women’s psyches, that that’s what they all want. All relations between guys and girls is basically violent, I think. It’s all war.”
― Frederik B, Saturday, 28 October 2017 11:57 (six years ago) link
Also, wasn't there photos in the book?
― Frederik B, Saturday, 28 October 2017 12:21 (six years ago) link
Book and interviews still from the same source tho Fred.
I do wonder if, assuming Ames/Taibbi were being honest about this shit back in the day, this will get less traction because the victims are less likely to be aware of US media trends.
It's all vile edgelord stuff if they made it up of course.
― Daniel_Rf, Saturday, 28 October 2017 12:28 (six years ago) link
The victims were non-english speaking teenage girls, and I'm guessing Ames and Taibbi changed their names. Yeah, this won't get any traction at all.
But it's not just a satirical book, is what I'm saying. This was an elaborate persona, that they kept up when they were interviewed, and I think they supported with photos. And I guess it's theoretically possible it was all just made up, and kept on for years, and that the photos were staged. Or it's an elaboration of real bad behaviour, of drugs, booze and misogyny. And come on, it's not the first one.
Ames' defense is not about explaining what went on back then - he never talks about how they really lived in Moscow - it's an attempt to short-circuit the use of the book as evidence against him. And then to attack people who complain as either disingenuous, or just not smart enough to get it. It's bullshit.
And it's libidinal. I'm probably going to repeat this over and over, but stuff like that book is absolutely what has happened when leftist politics has gone 'libidinal' or 'dirtbag' in the past. This is another excerpt from the book:
"Of course it was absurd," writes Taibbi elsewhere in the book, "that a paper which appeared to celebrate serial murder and sexual abuse would rant righteously about things like free speech and the rule of law. But we also knew that if we didn't have those conspicuous moral deficiencies, we'd have been just another 'right thinking' left leaning alternative paper—the dog of dogs in the post-End of History, post-Clinton publishing world....With all due respect to these people, nothing scares the powers that be less than an opposition of bearded lefties and nitpicking academics."
This is the reason Chapo keeps getting drawn into these things. Because in the past, proponents of libidinal politics have been really open about how it aligns with misogyny and 'edge lord' stuff, and things that are much much worse. And the simple fact is that Chapo and co. can either draw the line and explain why this time it's different, or they will have to accept that a lot of people aren't going to trust their project at all.
― Frederik B, Saturday, 28 October 2017 12:48 (six years ago) link
Chapo aren't journalists, and most actual journalists in the dirtbag/nu-US-left sphere don't write or otherwise express themselves in anything close to a style you could describe as "libidinous."
― Simon H., Saturday, 28 October 2017 13:04 (six years ago) link
Amber is probably the closest to being a serious journalist/writer and her style is absolutely not that.
― Simon H., Saturday, 28 October 2017 13:06 (six years ago) link
I got bullied in Junior high once and the dude was a really good wrestler and gave me a huge black eye and I didn't say shit, and then tried to be cool with him as much as possible. I was the second person he beat up that day.year after high school he liked a woman he met in a bar and tied her to a car transmission and sunk her in the river behind her dad's house. so what I'm saying is the whole stand up to bullies thing can be a dangerous fallacy.
― Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 28 October 2017 13:09 (six years ago) link
I remember one time he grabbed a kid's mullet and ripped out a handful of the party in the back portion
― Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 28 October 2017 13:11 (six years ago) link
Huh, I guess they didn't change the names:
The club's PR man, Stan, came up to take offense at The eXile rating of the place and also to complain about a recent sample of Ames' regular eXile column Moscow Babylon, which could be described as a lonely, angry rake's progress through an urban hell of whorish indulgence and sexual, emotional and physical violence. In the column that upset Stan, Ames recounted threatening to strangle a girlfriend if she didn't have an abortion. "I know that girl," Stan chided. "You should have at least changed her name. You're too cruel for Moscow." Ames shrugged it off but later said, "He's right. I should have changed her name."
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/bright-lights-red-square-19981126
― Frederik B, Saturday, 28 October 2017 18:19 (six years ago) link
Frederik B truly making himself ridiculous ITT referringto guys like Matt Christman and Will Menaker as “libidinal”.
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Saturday, 28 October 2017 18:44 (six years ago) link
Tbf it’s a reference to Matt’s quote that politics are inherently “libidinal” in the pulled Harvard Crimson article earlier this year.
― flappy bird, Saturday, 28 October 2017 20:04 (six years ago) link
Also the mincing of words & defense of Taibbi itt is pretty disappointing. Quality & influence of his writing has no bearing on his despicable behavior and how it should be discussed. He’s a fucking monster, sorry y’all like him, he’ll be blackballed within the week.
― flappy bird, Saturday, 28 October 2017 20:07 (six years ago) link
This is where I ask if any real people have actually accused him of impropriety or if the sole evidence is the book excerpts. (Obviously the coffee-throwing thing is...not great.)
― flappy bird, Saturday, 28 October 2017 20:08 (six years ago) link
that ames "apology" post is some real garbage
― while my dirk gently weeps (symsymsym), Saturday, 28 October 2017 20:19 (six years ago) link
The Taibbi/Ames book is literally evil but I’m not sure there is any indication chapo would head in a similar direction. Is the idea just that any irreverent style leads to psychopathy? Seems trenchant
― Treeship, Saturday, 28 October 2017 20:28 (six years ago) link
I mean wtf is this? Come on
I mean it seems like a fair question since everyone seems to be pointing at the book excerpts almost exclusively! (I did see V Mochama tweet that she was "warned" about him but again it's not clear to me that it was based on anything but the book.) It seems very likely that someone who wrote what he and Ames did would be a creep but I would like a little more concrete stuff to go on, esp since the era the book comes from had a whole lot more tryhard edgelord writing kicking around. I would absolutely not be surprised to see someone come forward in the next little while - it's not like he hasn't been in his share of offices in the intervening years.
― Simon H., Sunday, 29 October 2017 02:12 (six years ago) link
Like, the "lol it was satire chill out" claim is definitely sketchy as fuck but they were also dealing with a political environment I know less than nothing about.
― Simon H., Sunday, 29 October 2017 02:16 (six years ago) link
Pretty weird to call it an apology, even in quotation marks - it's pretty explicitly not that.
― Daniel_Rf, Sunday, 29 October 2017 09:47 (six years ago) link
I don't think misogyny and rape/murder fantasies is the right response to any political environment...
― Frederik B, Sunday, 29 October 2017 09:59 (six years ago) link
There was this thing in Russian arts in the late eighties/nineties called 'chernukha', which was this really dark, nihilistic way of describing society. But eXile is a piss poor example of that. And there's a fairly big difference when a Russian and foreigner does it.
― Frederik B, Sunday, 29 October 2017 10:10 (six years ago) link
Taibbi left First Look Media in 2014 after a female staffer complained he was 'verbally abusive and unprofessionally hostile': http://gawker.com/matt-taibbi-left-first-look-media-after-female-staffer-1652961860
And a thread on his use of misogynist language:
So Taibbi has a fairly incoherent excuse claiming his 2000 book was fictional "satire" that he regrets. https://t.co/C7fBU2vpou— Aphra Behn (@Shaker_aphra) October 29, 2017
― Frederik B, Sunday, 29 October 2017 18:29 (six years ago) link
I'd forgotten about the First Look Media thing.
― Simon H., Sunday, 29 October 2017 18:38 (six years ago) link
episode is recorded but the audio was fucked up for reasons beyond our control, you'll have an ep monday night at the latest, sorry https://t.co/6KKaQyVZrQ— Partisan Gridlock (@ByYourLogic) October 30, 2017
FFS it’s really not that hard to record and post an hourlong show
― Google Murray Blockchain (kingfish), Monday, 30 October 2017 07:17 (six years ago) link
Proves socialism is bad and inefficient if these schmucks can't record an hour-long podcast properly even with decent funds behind them
― But doctor, I am Camille Paglia (Bananaman Begins), Monday, 30 October 2017 08:15 (six years ago) link
I can't seem to figure out what got Krang T. Nelson suspended from Twitter? Was it really just the antifa thing? If so, that's exceptionally lame.
― Simon H., Monday, 30 October 2017 12:45 (six years ago) link
people just can't understand that "antifa super soldiers" is satire after seeing all the super soldiers on the streets these days
― mh, Monday, 30 October 2017 14:10 (six years ago) link
Taibbi did fucked up shit 20 years ago. He apologized. Pending further information, I don't care.
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Monday, 30 October 2017 14:22 (six years ago) link
(but he must never be forgiven, bcz that's how it goes in Woke Church)
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Monday, 30 October 2017 14:23 (six years ago) link
xp, I think a guy who bats .346 with 24 HRs is probably a little different on the protection scale than a fierce debater.
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Monday, 30 October 2017 14:26 (six years ago) link
haha wrong thread
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Monday, 30 October 2017 14:27 (six years ago) link
― flappy bird, Monday, 30 October 2017 15:12 (six years ago) link
There's literally further information about fucked up shit from 2014 in this thread.
― Frederik B, Monday, 30 October 2017 15:15 (six years ago) link
she felt the conduct may have been motivated, at least in part, by her gender
how unambiguously damning!
p4reene said there was no there there. good enough for me.
believe what you want to believe (apparently every word from every single woman who doesn't work for Trump)
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Monday, 30 October 2017 16:02 (six years ago) link
Bill Clinton did fucked up shit 20 years ago. He apologized. Pending further information, I don't care.
― while my dirk gently weeps (symsymsym), Monday, 30 October 2017 16:03 (six years ago) link
grow up and move on, witch hunters
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Monday, 30 October 2017 16:05 (six years ago) link
high five each other
― President Keyes, Monday, 30 October 2017 16:19 (six years ago) link
Probably an indication of how this Taibbi thing is going to play out (w/o any victim testimony) in the mainstream is the interview he did on On the Media this weekend, where Brooke Gladstone was very much "Because this is in the news I guess I have to ask you about this eXile thing that's 20 years old and a satire."
― President Keyes, Monday, 30 October 2017 16:24 (six years ago) link
the lengths y'all go to to defend and excuse the actions of someone you like
― flappy bird, Monday, 30 October 2017 17:06 (six years ago) link
yeah Brooke Gladstone is a rollover enabler now
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Monday, 30 October 2017 17:09 (six years ago) link
the "it was actually fiction" excuse is almost beyond belief to me, like who the hell is buying that shit?
really surprised there's been no post yet by kingfish about how they apparently fucked up the recording of yesterday's premium episode
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, 30 October 2017 17:09 (six years ago) link
lol there was though
― flappy bird, Monday, 30 October 2017 17:13 (six years ago) link
hahaha doh
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, 30 October 2017 17:27 (six years ago) link
brooke gladstone u sayhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=8zQEmDL6efo
― proton, neutron, electron and crouton (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 30 October 2017 17:48 (six years ago) link
wow this thread got disgusting
― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Monday, 30 October 2017 17:54 (six years ago) link
Brooke Gladstone’s book tour hits Portland tonight, should I ask her about it?
― Google Murray Blockchain (kingfish), Monday, 30 October 2017 18:04 (six years ago) link
about disgusting non-unanimity? might take awhile
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Monday, 30 October 2017 18:09 (six years ago) link
RL Stephens has a good thread about twitter vs real-life work
R.L. Stephens@RLisDeadThe base required to win elections is different than the base needed for transformative class struggle.To win a US electoral campaign, you need to mobilize those who are already likely to vote (wealthier, whiter). Most poor ppl don't voteTransformative class struggle is about building the capacity of the poor and dispossessed to not only win campaigns, but to lead societyIt's not that it's impossible to do both electoral campaigns and transformative class struggle, it's that we can't conflate the two. If you fight for a policy, are you doing it in a way that builds a base for transformative class struggle or just mobilizing likely voters?
The base required to win elections is different than the base needed for transformative class struggle.
To win a US electoral campaign, you need to mobilize those who are already likely to vote (wealthier, whiter). Most poor ppl don't vote
Transformative class struggle is about building the capacity of the poor and dispossessed to not only win campaigns, but to lead society
It's not that it's impossible to do both electoral campaigns and transformative class struggle, it's that we can't conflate the two.
If you fight for a policy, are you doing it in a way that builds a base for transformative class struggle or just mobilizing likely voters?
― Google Murray Blockchain (kingfish), Monday, 30 October 2017 18:13 (six years ago) link
I never read the eXile (or this spin-off book), is it accurate to say that parts of it were clearly fictional, liked Ames suggests? (and if so, were the fictional and non-fiction parts clearly demarcated, or did they play around with the ambiguity?)
― soref, Monday, 30 October 2017 18:15 (six years ago) link