Weinsteins step down as Miramax CEOs

his parents behaviour or lack vis a vis the pedophile cousin is definitely o_O-ville

but re Spacey:
the accuser’s story raises interesting questions about sexual agency- he sees his own desires through a very different lens as an adult now vs how he saw it then as a teen. a teen “in their right mind” initiating sex or agreeing to it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a healthy undertaking for either party.
it can be, of course, and sometimes is.
but there’s a lot of murk!! young teen boys + much older men is a reality of sexual awakening for a lot of ppl but that whole area can be such choppy waters for everyone involved.

but ultimately so brave of him to share such a deeply personal, challenging, and heartwrenching story.

also: knowing that there’s a lot more stories about Spacey yet to see the light of day, it definitely shades his pathology. i mean, he admits he noticed the kid at 12 ffs.

https://www.artforum.com/news/id=71957

We, the undersigned contributing editors of Artforum, stand with the magazine’s current and former staff in condemning the publishers’ handling of the allegation of Knight Landesman’s sexual misconduct—as reflected in their original statement, from October 24, denigrating the actions of the woman who first brought this situation to light, as “an attempt to exploit a relationship that she herself worked hard to create and maintain.” Both the alleged behavior and the response to it are deplorable. We are united in our belief that everyone should be able to live and work free from all forms of unwanted contact, intimidation, or coercion for any reason, whether rooted in gender, sex, race, ethnicity, nationality, age, weight, ability, or class. Indeed, our engagement with the magazine has been predicated on a shared investment in this fundamental principle, as emblematized by Michelle Kuo’s recent principled resignation as editor. We express our deep respect for her decision as well as our full support for David Velasco, who is taking her place in this contentious and uncertain time. In the weeks and months to come, we expect the magazine’s publishers both to assume responsibility and to take all action necessary, in coordination with the staff, to ensure a transparent, equitable professional environment free of harassment and discrimination. Given the magazine’s history and longstanding commitments, Artforum’s communities of writers and readers deserve no less.

“young teen boys + much older men is a reality of sexual awakening for a lot of ppl”

I know there’s a different cultural framing but how is this actually different from a 30 year old man and a 13 year old girl

no difference at all, for some reason it's acceptable for certain older gay men to peddle the narrative that fucking teenagers is good for them and if they happen to end up traumatized years later it's on them, or something

most recently peddled by the guy slate won't stop publishing in his already-aged-super-well "How Calling Kevin Spacey a Pedophile Hurts the Gay Community", where he once again uses a mixture of NAMBLA rhetoric and the same arguments you see 4channers using when they defend their love of kiddie hentai ('the age of consent is different in different countries so statutory rape doesn't exist!' 'but there's definitely a hard distinction between pedophilia and ephebehebephila, a word used by literally no one except us')

Not that I'm trying to justify those kind of arguments or anything, but ephebophilia is a real thing, and presumably way more common than "proper" pedophilia... Hence all those "barely legal" porn flicks etc.

VegGrrl otm

I know you're among the squad that hate me, qualx, but there's no need to go that low

a word used by literally no one except us

but then again, you're the proudly ignorant type

I'm glad you've coined a term for yr love of the Three Stooges tho

qualx otm

just because some teens might "turn out okay" after sexual relationships with adults doesn't mean that it's permissible in any way for adults to fuck teenagers

The Artforum allegations are very present on my Facebook timeline. It was an uncomfortable reminder that this problem is everywhere and not some Hollywood (or some other community where I’m not a member) issue. I was encouraged by a few updates from women in my professional community (academic science) that we made progress on these issues in the past decade or two after confronting similar problems, but I feel like that’s probably bullshit and a shoe will inevitably drop.

I was encouraged by a few updates from women in my professional community (academic science) that we made progress on these issues in the past decade or two after confronting similar problems, but I feel like that’s probably bullshit and a shoe will inevitably drop

http://beta.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-uc-berkeley-astronomer-sexual-harassment-20151013-story.html
https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/i37/Confronting-sexual-harassment-chemistry.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/10/31/after-metoo-a-facebook-list-names-south-asian-academics-some-say-its-a-step-too-far/

uncomfortable reminder that this problem is everywhere and not some Hollywood issue

yep yep yep

anywhere there's a considerable power differential really

aka everywhere

so is the imminent awards-friendly film Call Me by Your Name, about a romance/affair between two males aged 24 and 17, going to be shouted down as a rape movie?

no

but adult:teenager

17 is not 14

I agree

ok bye guys

lol

(having never heard of the film) it is possible to both

1) think that adults shouldn't try to fuck teenagers
2) appreciate a piece of art that addresses complexities of adult-teenager sexual relationships

and honestly my advice to a 24 year old interested in a 17 year old, no matter how sophisticated or mature that 17 year old seems to be - wait a fuckin year or two!!! it's not that hard

*beat*

Not that I'm trying to justify those kind of arguments or anything, but ephebophilia is a real thing, and presumably way more common than "proper" pedophilia... Hence all those "barely legal" porn flicks etc.

― Tuomas, Friday, November 3, 2017 5:54 AM (five hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you can make words for anything, who cares? the only people who actually use the word are the people who frequently find themselves defending predatorial behavior

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C33&q=ephebophilia&btnG=&oq=epheb

I'm still frustrated and angry about a couple men my sister was involved with when she was 19 and they were around 30. There are exceptions to the rule, but generally something is highly suspect in that dynamic and having that suspicion realized is painful

I still am o_O every time I think of my friend's sister, who lives in a small town and started dating a dude who was probably 30 when she was 15 (!) and is now married to him.

xp ok, the only people who care to hammer the distinction in real life and not just in academic papers about the catholic church

It's not absurd to say that finding post-pubertal humans attractive is a different thing to wanting to fuck young children. Calling the former by the name of the latter is unhelpful precisely because it makes it harder to discuss what wrong can be done by a 26-year-old having sex with a consenting 14-year-old.

yeah I don't follow how calling a adult who rapes a 14 year old a pedophile makes anything additionally difficult for anyone but ok

"consenting 14 year old"

hooooo boy there must be some libertarians in the house

The long account by the second teen Spacey accuser makes it clear he thought he was consenting at the time. It also elucidates how his supposed consent did not actually mean he was mature enough to be having sex, and that Spacey (& al) damaged him by that relationship.

That dude was 24?!

This one: http://www.vulture.com/2017/11/kevin-spacey-alleged-sexual-relationship.html

I meant the dude from call me by your name. He looks a lot older (and the kid younger than 17) to me

Armie Hammer is 30, Chalamet 21.

the characters are 24 and 17

Wow (at the latter, not surprised at all by the former) xp

Chalamet plays a teen again in the new Gerwig film.

Benny Hill was one of the least surprising but I don't know what happened.

Alec Baldwin: 'I've bullied women.'

many xposts but sic otm

shit is getting heated itt and i get it, age gap wrt sex is a hugely contentious & subjective issue.

i really do think it’s a valid topic for conversation and I want it to be talked about but only IF we listen to each other & appreciate that not everyone a) shares your view or b) shares the unique experiences that inform yr opinion

but i also get that it’s also v painful & personal and very black & white for some ppl and maybe an open discussion itt specifically isn’t the right space for this kind of conversation

& we maybe move on?

idk

I just need to get the fuck out of ilx for good

Hey qualx, I'm with you on this. It is a narcissism of small differences thing.

debates over the age at which it's morally ok to fuck adolescents isn't a small difference situation imo

at times I'm reminded that this place isn't for me, I've spent the better part of the day with my skin crawling, I'm done

i think u misunderstood me. i meant from the perspective of those defending the distiction.

17 isn't adolescent though. Still, in all probability, problematic for anyone much over 21. Anyway, this isn't about age, it's about power and control, although obviously people in their 20s dating anyone under 17 is creepy at best

"17 isn't adolescent though" isn't it? I think everything through 19 is 'adolescent'.

to clarify my statement above that caused some dust up: my take on that was that the man was clearly a damaged kid at 14 who certainly perceived himself to be consenting at that age, and then in retrospect realized that consent at that age is rather dicey. I didn't mean to disparage him which is why I said "i'm not victim blaming". the 'but' was probably the wrong word to use. in my defense I'd just woken up, it was like 5:30 am and I hadn't had any coffee and wasn't really phrasing things in a very artful manner. My thoughts on it are better conveyed by VegemiteWoman

i guess in trying not to negate the Spacey accuser’s experience i’ve opened up a can of worms that i’m not able or informed enough to moderate or even navigate

i’m not coming down on either side of this issue because of personal reasons that i’m not willing to share

i naively thought that entertaining the ~idea~ could be done at a distance idk academically i guess but i really did not think through where this thought exercise would go & i am sorry for that

i am not sorry for wanting to talk about it though

idk if i can deal with this convo anymore either tbh
came back to say that maybe instead of "fucked up" we can say "vulnerable" with an optional "to predators"?

i appreciate the thoughtful discussion, am glad VG is here asking tough questions
17 is adolescent, don't kid yourself

MORE: NYPD says it is building a rape case against Harvey Weinstein, gathering evidence to seek an arrest warrant. https://t.co/h2Bvw0R0wE

— AP Eastern U.S. (@APEastRegion) November 3, 2017