Rolling Marvel Cinematic Universe thread (+ a poll: Classic or Dud?)

I disagree (though of course ymmv). I think many of the best comics stories - like movies, or books, or TV shows in any violent genre - have addressed the moral/ethical/philosophical quandaries of violence, and that from the start is partly what has earned comics respect, though especially in the more modern graphic novel era. But I think that stuff has to be suppressed on a more mainstream level, or at least seriously counterbalanced, by more innocuous stuff, or (as it is often termed) "cartoon violence" or "comic book violence," a distinction that robs the violence of its real world implications, like a frying pan to the face or hundreds of faceless stormtroopers being decimated with lasers. Vs. buildings and cities being destroyed. Obviously the movies gravitate toward the latter, for the sake of spectacle, but take the new Thor. Without question, the world destroying stuff is much less compelling and entertaining than Thor and Hulk hitting each other. The flip side might be the TV Daredevil/Jones/Luke Cage world, which is as grim as anything in the real world, and seems to be by far the bloodiest, most sadistic and (to me) most disturbingly violent approach the MCU has explored yet. Daredevil was the first MCU property I had to warn parents away from.

Oh my goodness, yes, keep yr kids away from the Netflix series (ironically the most easily-accessible of the lot), particularly the two seasons of Daredevil. Kingpin and the Punisher wreak some gruesome havoc.

I think there's plenty of ethical/moral/philosophical questions that are routinely tackled in the superhero genre, but they do not incide on violence itself as much as questions of power and responsibility (as Spidey would have it); heroes failing to save someone, loved ones being put in danger, etc. This feels to me fundamentally different from what, say, a crime novel or a revenge movie have to say about violence, because the actual dynamics of violence are never truly examined. Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns aside (and really it's arguable to what extent the latter truly critiques violence), I feel like most attempts to do so in the modern era have failed, turned incoherent or, as I said above, used the question as a hook to then wallow in violence w/o actually having anything to say on the subject. I think Marvel has taken a concious decision to move away from that kind of project in its comics of the last decade or so, and the MCU follows suit.

I'm just saying, if you want a comic book movie that functions as a mediation on the ramifications of living a life a violence, you are likely to be more interested in A History of Violence than you are Thor: Ragnarok; as D_Rf says, violence in the MCU is a tool used to create scenarios that explore other themes and is rendered the way it is partially to appeal to a wider audience and partially to not distract the viewer from the story that is being presented.

(I haven't seen Logan yet but, given the character, it makes sense to delve into the ramifications of a violent life with a character whose existence is driven by berserker rage and the ability to shrug off near-fatal injuries and what happens when that character's healing abilities falter.)

Logan is explicitly about violence (not unlike, say, a movie like Unforgiven, or The Searchers), and may be in my estimation the best and most emotionally resonant of all these movies. Like I said, maybe that's just a coincidence. And I'm not saying I want that from all or even most MCU movies, just saying that it at least partly explains why all these movies are starting to feel like running in place to me. Seemingly indestructible beings somehow overcoming other seemingly indestructible beings with minimal repercussions. And I stand by my observation that given the only thing distinguishing the sadistic violence in these movies from their R equivalents is actual blood, the results are pretty surreal. As if a lifeless corpse impaled on a giant spear is less disturbing minus the dripping blood. I'm not a prig, I just think they want it both ways (per the maximum profit maxim), but if they're going to be hyper-violent anyway they might as well better explore those themes. I'm not saying this would make them superior entertainments, but it might make them better movies, ones worth watching more than once.

(I haven't seen Thor: Ragnarok yet, either)

it's a lot funnier than Logan

This doesn't surprise me!

I'm just saying, if you want a comic book movie that functions as a mediation on the ramifications of living a life a violence, you are likely to be more interested in A History of Violence than you are Thor

Haha in fairness, I haven't seen or read that either.

Hi dere, I am DJP and today I will talk out of my ass about movies I haven't seen yet.

i like all the MCU stuff - and the CW DC shows for that matter - when they create the look, tone and feel of the superhero comics of yore. It's pretty simple but when they're as fun as the stuff I grew up reading, it's more or less all I'm in it for. To that end the Cap movies and the Flash show have been pretty great for this. I started strong on DD and the Netflix stuff but I kind of waded through the second series of DD, never finished Luke Cage, and put up with 1 ep of the Defenders.

Logan annoyed me as an X-Men movie, because it was like “yeah yeah yeah superheroes but what if he’s just REAL sad”

Granted, the last few X Men movies havent been great (or any of them) & the shift in tone was a nice change. But imo Logan felt like a movie made by ppl who could give a shit about mutants etc. Like the Star Trek remakes: JJ’s like “ehh science fiction schmience fiction, let’s just make it look cool”

My point being that Logan’s an outlier (ugh i hate that word but i cant think of a replacement), with good reason.

I watch superhero movies ~because~ they’re superhero movies ie fantastical &/or heightened reality & non-bloody violence without a lot of real world consequence ... if i wanted NOT that then that’s what other movies are for.
I don’t *want* blood and consequences! I want the bad guys to get kapowed into space & the good guys to do the kapowing.

It’s like trying to make Cap’n Crunch cereal healthy. The whole reason it exists is that isn’t.

idk. pvmic i guess?

I feel like we're in this for the same reasons.
What made the first X-men movie so satisfying (in retrospect, not to say good) was that when Cyclops shot a beam it sent Sabretooth FLYING - just as I had seen Byrne and others draw countless times.

Logan annoyed me as an X-Men movie, because it was like “yeah yeah yeah superheroes but what if he’s just REAL sad”

Hope you're strapped in for the next X-Men movie (New Mutants) which looks like 'yeah yeah yeah superheroes but what if it's horror instead of superheroes'

it also looks like some extremely shoddy straight to video horseshit

It looks like Stranger X-Things

Logan reminded me of a lot of the comics I read as a kid, with the protagonist isolated, hiding and persecuted.

Hope you're strapped in for the next X-Men movie (New Mutants) which looks like 'yeah yeah yeah superheroes but what if it's horror instead of superheroes'

It'll still be better than the Gifted (I know, I know, tv, but...) which is 'yeah yeah yeah Tomorrow People bombed but what if it's X-Men instead of obscure 70s british show'.

The difficulty, made even harder by Logan being so well received, is to stop Logan being like Watchmen/DKR/B:Year1/Longbow Hunters and ushering in the Dark Age of comics movies.

When people start muttering "superhero movies aren't just for kids any more!" it's the end.

Logan's only the fourth most successful X-Men film though, with Deadpool on the top - I'm totally behind a Profane Age.

New Mutants looks badass aside from the change to Cecilia Reyes

The difficulty, made even harder by Logan being so well received, is to stop Logan being like Watchmen/DKR/B:Year1/Longbow Hunters and ushering in the Dark Age of comics movies.

The Dark Knight came out a decade ago!

I was uncertain about New Mutants until I read that it's apparently adapting the Demon Bear storyline and now I'm like 'yes, please'. Plus a lot of the casting seems really solid.

the demon bear part is what makes me most worried tbh - the risk of creating a horrendously stereotypical portrayal of native americans seems v high

Hopefully the film will feature the characters of Tom Corsi and Sharon Friedlander and set your mind at ease.

They did at least cast a Native American actress as Dani Moonstar. That's a promising sign.

Some of you might remember a screenwriter explaining why one of his blockbuster films was so awful. He said when the budget gets so high, there tends to be a demand for some apocalyptic threat. That's a big part of the problem.
They should lower the stakes, surely it can be fun without massive destruction and disasters?

Spider-Man Homecoming was perhaps my favourite MCU film to date, and the climax of that only involved one large thing falling out of the sky. Heading in the right direction.

Civil War was good in this respect as well- the whole movie was predicated on fallout from the previous flick’s apocalyptic crisis.

the low-key climax of iron man 3, where tony uses his suit's repulsor beam to gently blast a trapped kitten from a tree, was a real turning point in this regard

xpost Yeah, Civil War was like an extended fight on a runway. I think they might've like fucked up the surrounding grass a bit but the landscaping crew was able to turn it around in an afternoon.

Looking forward to the Avengers' cumulative four-hour strongly-worded debate with Thanos. He's gonna be sweating all over his notecards by the end.

There'll be two movies of build-up to the confrontation with Thanos and all the Avengers are shitting themselves, then Hulk's going to give him a little punch and he'll fall over straight away and Tony Stark will be like "Haha, that was easy!" and Cap'll be "Yeah, we should've got that out the way ages ago!" and they'll go to the pub.

Thanos learns the hard way via his first direct violent encounter that he's a hemophiliac.

'No, no, seriously, guys, hold up. I think I need to go to the hospital.'

In the case of Wolverine I think it's hard to avoid violence. It was insulting to children in the 90s cartoon for him to keep attacking people only for him to miss each time, unless he was cutting their weapons, vehicles or robots. Children do think about the dangerous things their entertainment is only allowed to flirt with.
I don't see them doing a screen Wolverine where he never tries to cut anyone.

I don't see them doing a screen Wolverine where he never tries to cut anyone.

― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, November 8, 2017

THE WOLVERINE is pretty hilariously bloodless

"Ant-man" was praised for being "low stakes," with no apocalyptic ending. It was also, as they say in the biz, "utterly forgettable." RedLetter dudes noted that new Thor would have been great as just an alien space gladiator film.

Ant-Man was great and did well, what more would you want from it? Also a character that the mainstream public is generally totally unaware of.
Agreed that Ragnarok didn't need the high stakes at all to be fun

new Thor would have been great as just an alien space gladiator film.

Oh yeah, whacky Kirby space bits were much better than dull old Asgard.

I thought the handful of Ant-Man in Civil War was better than all of Ant-Man the movie, which really suffered from the villain problem.

it felt like they really wanted to make a Planet Hulk movie but were hedging their bets (or couldn't cos of the rights snafu with Universal)

do they license Hulk?

I believe Universal still own the distribution (but not production) rights to any solo Hulk movie

Don't know how this news passed us by: Marvel is finally giving Black Widow her own movie. I guess since Wonder Woman proved that (gasp) superhero movies starring women aren't necessarily box office poison?

"Box Office Poison!" would make a good promo blurb for it

... by the writer of Olaf’s Frozen Adventure.

meantime there's Red Sparrow

The Captain Marvel movie is really more interesting imo

Also a bigger risk - the Black Widow movie has felt like a no-brainer for a while

I mean

Quirky indie actress in the lead
Quirky indie director duo
Weird IP that most people have only heard of because of a totally (ok they’re both women) different character with the same name
Set in the 1990s (before the Avengers Initiative)
Samuel Jackson cameo (with both eyes intact)

Captain Marvel is going to be weird