Weinsteins step down as Miramax CEOs

A friend on the Takei accusation: "He is describing half the pick ups and going home from bars in gay history."

I don't know that I agree, but there are more dubious factors in this one than in most of the incidents heretofore described.

(witchfinder general descends on Dr Morbius' lab)

What dubious factors?

I've said enough.

I'm appreciating the posts from Our Gays here a lot because I've been wondering what is the place of sexual "deviancy" after our current moment. I know of abusers in my profession who've characterized their behavior as deviancy: swinging, partner swapping, three+somes, etc. Participants have responded that the abuser coerced them into these activities: the consent was very gray, both because of significant power differentials and because of deviancy.

I wonder about the practicality of engaging in "deviant" behavior while having the kind of enthusiastic consent that's idealized as responses to coercion.

I tend to think of people on the Left as friends of deviancy in some very vague sense, and in our moment people on the Left are also friends of a pretty firm morality: enthusiastic consent is a marker of a principle of "don't harm others". But I'm thinking about how the avoidance of harm can be assured in the midst of "deviancy", and if it can't be assured, what place is there for "deviancy" in a Leftist culture?

some lefties are most definitely the New Puritans.

consent is a marker of a principle of "don't harm others". But I'm thinking about how the avoidance of harm can be assured in the midst of "deviancy"

Where there is the risk of harm, then the consenter, if they are above the age of consent, is consenting to that risk. Where there is mutuality, responsibility is not confined to either partner.

We need to talk about @SwetShopBoys.
About them being held up as examples of progressive South Asian men.
They benefit from the uplift of a whole diasporic community.
Riz & Himanshu are you sure all of your behaviour in the past has been acceptable?

— Kindness (@Kindness) November 10, 2017

There's probably a range of gay social spaces, and maybe times have changed. When I went with gay friends to discos in the early 90s, I'd be groped on the dance floor. I identify as asexual leaning straight, but I didn't find it threatening, perhaps... flattering? I figured, their space, their rules. I wouldn't be surprised if much more went on without consent at leather bars, and much less and wine bars.

there’s the argument that being in some spaces is ad hoc consent for touching others, but the unspoken part of it is where it’s a grey area and some of my friends who frequent those spaces still find it predatory and unwelcome. especially when the more aggressive people are known predators

Obv, if we all lived in large enough communities of more or less shared interests, I'm sure there would be a range of spaces with differing norms available. Some places where it was accepted that one could be pushed against a wall, some where notes would be discretely passed by waiters. I don't doubt that in some places like NY and SF, a range of spaces approximating that may exist. Perhaps the invasions of personal space we may be consenting to would be posted at entrances.

It's all rather complicated. Its lead some like myself to simply not bother with the mess that is sexuality, its evidently lead others to assume consent based on past norms they were exposed to.

Personally, I think we be lenient towards sexual advances in social spaces where its close to the norm. Sexual harassment in discos can be avoided by dancing at home. We should pay closest attention to sexual advances/harassment in the workplace, especially when committed by those with power. For actors and many others, the workplace extends to restaurants, and sexual advances shouldn't be tolerated there. On the other hand, when someone consents to visiting Harvey Weinstein or his ilk in a bedroom or hotel suite, alone, I can easily see fair minded jury members concluding that this constitutes consent to advances, but not consent to acts. Private spaces aren't work spaces, and its a distinction worth preserving.

Sexual harassment in discos can be avoided by dancing at home.

Er Sanpaku love you man but wtf is this

What I'm saying is that in some spaces, most patrons have their own norms that are related to but don't coincide exactly with mainstream ones. I'm not sure if there's any place where consent to clothing-invasive touching is implied, but there are plenty of places where less-invasive touching is accepted.

When I visited that gay disco in the early 90s (it warms my heart to discover that Rich's of Houston is still around, 25-odd years later), as an outsider in every way but looking like a twink, I recognized that I consented to the norms of that community at that time. I'm not going to go after my then acquaintance, then the campus ACLU rep and probably now an ACLU lawyer, for grabbing my junk then. We were both adults. There were no employment issues involved. It might have harmed others who don't share my nonchalance, but that was perhaps a normal sexual advance in that time and place.

Now, a disco that caters to frat boys and sorority girls, if the sorority girls want to sue, by all means. I'd love to see some of those dens of nonconsensual advances (by which I mean the frats) go down.

I'm not going to get all Camille Paglia here: I'm not that far down that rat hole. I just think that a social norm, in which no previously unconsented touching is acceptable, in any context, isn't one in accord with human nature. Some people go to discos to be touched, if not sexually, than by the press of the crowd. It's why I went.

Now, how we negotiate the lines of what is and isn't acceptable in each context is another matter. I think we can all agree that work relationships shouldn't involve unwanted sexual advances. I think we can all agree that minors aren't equipped to consent. Weinstein should rot. Spacey's ephebophilia should be condemned. But I'm not bothered with the Takei story, and I'd like to think it has nothing to do with sharing political views.

the dude he groped seems bothered by it

specifically, the guy claiming "he passed out and awoke to find Takei trying to strip him and groping his genitals"

Good for Gadot for forcing WB's hand re: Ratner.

https://www.information.dk/indland/2017/11/years-lars-von-triers-producer-partner-systematically-spanked-trainees-as-punishment?lst_prelnoart

The original report in English: http://politiken.dk/kultur/art6202316/Former-Zentropa-employees-expose-system-of-degradation-and-sexual-harassment

Amazingly, the dude isn't fired yet, and is even propped up by the main Danish film magazine, who has mostly spent the last month blaming women. We need something good to happen...

ahh Lars von Trier already made a (pretty good) movie about this right...

Xp Brunton implies he might’ve been roofied, too - and I don’t care what social norms are in any group, this guy thought he was having a drink with a friend and instead was sexually assaulted.

dunno if it was posted somewhere else on ilx

https://www.thecut.com/2017/11/rebecca-traister-on-the-post-weinstein-reckoning.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/elizabeth-perkins-james-woods-me-too-rally_us_5a09bd07e4b0bc648a0c9e6a

Woods, Oliver Stone...definitely some low-hanging fruit out there.

That Traister piece is great.

“In early September, before the existence of the warrant for McGowan was public, Weinstein held a meeting with his private investigators that was focussed on the efforts to arrest McGowan...”

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/rose-mcgowan-speaks-out-about-her-arrest-on-drug-charges

this shit is terrifying & all those people should go to jail

the only way anything is going to fundamentally change is if we burn everything down and start over. there's still way too much rot and privilege embedded in all the interlocking systems.

^^^

Weinstein handing out book deals to gossip assassins in exchange for them taking down accusers will hopefully be part of Ronan Farrow's work in the coming months.

Lawyers gotta be frothing to bleed Weinstein dry by now. I dunno how it all works but I assume there’s some coordinating that has to go on with the DAs that have jurisdiction over who gets to start carving what first.

Also are the unions gonna take any of this on the chin for not protecting their members? It’s more than setting the daily rates, folks.

maura otm

damn this is the same shit Francis Farmer had to deal with 75 years ago

There seems to be enough room for reasonable doubt, seeing as she did not have the wallet in her possession when the coke was found there. But still, how horrible.

and she still hasn't had her revenge

xpost

So angry rn

...

ninety-nine times out of a hundred the "mossad agents have been tailing me and likely framed me for drug possession" is a bad defense, but...

ok are we seriously all gonna multi-otm "burn everything down and start over"

maybe I should start a thread about how society is irretrievably corrupted and broken and humans are rotten oh wait I think we already have one for e.m. cioran quotes

let me be the first to apologize for being a disgusting incrementalist

burn it all down otm, imo

there are two kinds of people: those who have faith in the system & its ability to self correct, and those who see it as fundamentally fucked up

a lot of people i know who have the most faith in the system see it in the most clear-minded way; those are the more right wing types who appreciate the advantages it has given them

I don't agree with that either because I am both of those people

I ensure all my new employees are familiar with the word "sisyphean"

yeah idk burning everything down only works if you include everyone in your new world

if you're too selective, you don't get Sisyphus deciding not to roll the boulder, you get... Atlas shrugging

I mean yes, the system is fundamentally fucked up, because it is made of human beings

but also, deliberate incremental change is less likely to result in wholesale destruction and mass murder and plundering and so forth

or what mh said

burn it all down is the goal, though

The biggest problem with burning it all down is that the people with access to the resources that will allow you to start over usually use those resources to the see the fire coming and either abscond with as much of them as they can, making the "start over" part even harder than it already is, or insert themselves into the process of starting over so they can make sure the new system still benefits them.

I think there is a lot of romantic appeal to hitting the reset button but navigating the practicality of actually doing it is fraught with peril; I won't say that makes it not worth doing but it should be taken into consideration in your planning.

What does "burn it all down" mean in concrete terms? Boycotting Hollywood movies?

arson, imo

Concrete beams don't burn

being shitty to women is the foundation of modern civilization
i hope we can burn it down but i would like to suggest controlled burns until we can get a better idea of how to proceed when the burning is complete

rebecca traister's most recent article is a series of truth bombs we can start with

humanity is wretched and violent and always will be imo