Weinsteins step down as Miramax CEOs

No hashtags

I probably went too far there..probably the pre-Thanksgiving dissociatives. From my perspective as an "outsider" on all of this, I just think we need, as a society, to distinguish between sexual advances that are an abuse of power (many of those on this thread), and acts that aren't sexual advances at all. For example George HW Bush or Al Franken incidentally touching buttocks at photo ops. We need to get more uptight and angry about abuses of power, but not all of this qualifies.

oooh “incidentally”

I think for the latter it's still an abuse of power and men taking what they want and implicitly feel they deserve and are allowed to get away with. Whether or not it rises to the level of Weinstein and others is probably not the issue, falling as it does under the general category of "shit men in positions of power and authority think they can do with impunity."

And not even just those men, but random nothing men. (Which some of these guys are anyway despite their stature.)

Yea obviously there are levels here but I think this cultural wave is sweeping the same general pattern of power abuse and silencing, this thread is a good repository and also Weinstein story lit the fuse

ts: shit men vs random nothing men

acts that aren't sexual advances at all. For example George HW Bush or Al Franken incidentally touching buttocks at photo ops

but it wasn't "incidentally touching" they full on grabbed the butts. grabbing a butt is a sexual advance. and they did so because they could get away w it.

like Al Franken didn't incidentally shove his tongue down that girl's throat because it was an accident or a lapse in etiquette. it is funny to say "It's not boys will be boys" and take a grand stand and then follow it up with "but these guys are cool and this was not sexual" those two sentiments almost seem entirely at odds w each other. if you want to apologize for that behavior then go ahead but don't pretend you are doing otherwise

ts: shit men vs random nothing men

We need a legal framework

Strange to say, societies that recognize the legal concept of property seem to struggle the most with defining the proper channels and boundaries for sexuality.

For w/e reason I don’t believe the Franken tongue part on a personal level, although at the stage of the discourse what I think doesn’t matter

Like, it’s just an underlying suspicion I have if I’m being honest w myself about my bullshit detector

And not even just those men, but random nothing men. (Which some of these guys are anyway despite their stature.)

― omar little, Thursday, November 23, 2017 10:49 AM (seven hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I’m sure large % of dudes itt have have done something like that Franken photo tbh & I don’t say that to lessen the importance of reflecting on it but bc I think there’s a danger in dissociating from “the bad guys” & not recognizing the true extent to which male entitlement is a part of society’s fabric

Let's just step back for a sec and let you set out exactly what you are sure that a large % of dudes itt have done, shall we

Let’s not? We already deleted a thread like that. The point is skepticism of holier than thou attitude

Otm. Speak for yourself D-40.

the otm was for deems

"I’m sure large % of dudes itt have have done something like that Franken photo tbh "

I mean...

I think there’s a danger in dissociating from “the bad guys” & not recognizing the true extent to which male entitlement is a part of society’s fabric

you know one way to discourage it from being a part of society's fabric until society is radically rearranged? making clear that behavior like this, no matter how common it is, has (or should have) material consequences

Anyway I bring up the fact that I’m suspicious of the Franken accuser only to say, in my mind, I’ve accepted that an overcorrection is preferable unless some incontrovertible evidence comes out; better to extend benefit of the doubt in the opposite direction & nurse personal suspicions of a false accusation than try and argue for a return to the old way of thinking about this stuff just bc I have an intuition

I’m assuming some ppl feel this way as well no?

you know one way to discourage it from being a part of society's fabric until society is radically rearranged? making clear that behavior like this, no matter how common it is, has (or should have) material consequences

― Simon H., Thursday, November 23, 2017 6:33 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I agree w this point and was in no way arguing against it!!

truth be told, i'm slightly suspicious due to her political persuasion. but yeah, in this climate, better to err on the side of the accuser

Otm. Speak for yourself D-40.

― Le Bateau Ivre, Thursday, November 23, 2017 6:32 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Lol sorry that all the Good Guys make me skeptical ... I was raised by a single feminist mom & have always thought of myself as “not one of those guys” but imo this is something every guy should be reflecting on more thoroughly incl myself bc it really was something ppl are not raised to think about to the extent that’s now being discussed imo

Anyway I bring up the fact that I’m suspicious of the Franken accuser only to say, in my mind, I’ve accepted that an overcorrection is preferable unless some incontrovertible evidence comes out; better to extend benefit of the doubt in the opposite direction & nurse personal suspicions of a false accusation than try and argue for a return to the old way of thinking about this stuff just bc I have an intuition

I’m assuming some ppl feel this way as well no?

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Friday, November 24, 2017 12:34 AM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

But what is this even supposed to mean? "An overcorrection is preferable unless some incontrovertible evidence comes up"?!

You saw the photo. He was ("pretend")-groping a woman who was defenseless and sleeping. What overcorrection is preferable here when you had incontrovertible evidence staring you in the face?

I was talking about the kiss part

And the specific example was not the point!

Lol sorry that all the Good Guys make me skeptical ... I was raised by a single feminist mom & have always thought of myself as “not one of those guys” but imo this is something every guy should be reflecting on more thoroughly incl myself bc it really was something ppl are not raised to think about to the extent that’s now being discussed imo

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Thursday, November 23, 2017 7:39 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yo once again speak for yourself!

Respecting another person's personal space is not something I've had to grapple with, no. And Simon OTM about punishing this behavior so that it is mitigated and hopefully one day extinguished.

what you are sure that a large % of dudes itt have done

hemiola iirc

Respecting another person's personal space is not something I've had to grapple with, no. And Simon OTM about punishing this behavior so that it is mitigated and hopefully one day extinguished.

― flappy bird, Thursday, November 23, 2017 7:46 PM (twenty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It doesn’t have to be a personal space violation exactly, again not the point, but I’m glad to hear everyone on this board has lived their entire lives in misogyny free zones

And I wasn’t arguing with Simon!

what are you sure that was done in this thread by a large percentage of dudes?
a distinctly difficult thing to say but harder still to do!
we'll beat a tattoo, at twenty to two, a rat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat tattoo,
and the dragon will come when he hears the drum, at a minute or two to two today, at a minute or two to two.

Also in case I’m not being explicit enough: I don’t believe you

(Xp)

It doesn’t have to be a personal space violation exactly, again not the point,

ok what is the point? that Weinstein and Franken are worlds apart? sure, their transgressions are definitely not the same. everything that Franken is accused of, it's not something I've had to grapple with, and I did not grow up in a trad leftwing household by any means. i don't know wtf kind of 'zone' you're talking about that involves unwanted physical moves or crude comments.

but I’m glad to hear everyone on this board has lived their entire lives in misogyny free zones

i've never groped an unconscious woman, no. are you talking about 'the locker room'? there's absolutely a difference between teenagers/college students talking about who they find attractive, perhaps in vulgar terms, and touching/kissing them w/o consent or saying sick shit to them. it's sort of common sense.

Also in case I’m not being explicit enough: I don’t believe you

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Thursday, November 23, 2017 9:31 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPEYDiBUYAAhX3Z.jpg

Almost every guy I’ve spoken w about this from a wide range of backgrounds has told me what’s been happening has them reflecting on their own behavior with women, pretty much to a man. And I don’t think (but don’t know) any of them have done anything illegal or dangerous per se, but it’s all a spectrum of male behavior that is implicitly and explicitly reinforced from the time we’re in pre school to the current day. Even studying the subject itself, reading bell hooks, whatever? I don’t think that really has made any men truly grapple w the extent of this, and I really think if you overly proclaim your innocence I just don’t trust you

- that wasn't my point
- i was talking about (something irrelevant)
- but really, it's universal
- exactly! that's what i said 420 posts ago
- no, you're missing my point again
- i'm a deep thinker, you just can't keep up

"Almost every guy I’ve spoken w about this from a wide range of backgrounds has told me what’s been happening has them reflecting on their own behavior with women, pretty much to a man."

http://nymag.com/daily/politics/20061107pollster.jpg

All of your imaginary friends are much better people than us

Or

All of your imaginary friends are much worse people than us

Admittedly neither statement would be all that shocking coming from a pair of clownshoes that can type

"I don’t think that really has made any men truly grapple w the extent of this"

https://i2.wp.com/www.marriagerevolution.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Mind-Reader.jpg

hey man you're the one that came out swinging with generalizations and calling people liars. Good luck on your survey

And I’m also not defending !! The Franken photo and I’m sorry if it came across that way ? Seems to me he thought he was doing a visual gag & totally overstepped boundaries but I also don’t believe most men on ilx haven’t overstepped appropriate behavior even one time in their lives — not groping someone per se but making a shitty joke at work, or saying something shitty about someone’s appearance, or ... I don’t know man, again this is for people to deal w personally, I’m just saying

"Almost every guy I’ve spoken w about this from a wide range of backgrounds has told me what’s been happening has them reflecting on their own behavior with women, pretty much to a man."

http://nymag.com/daily/politics/20061107pollster.jpg

― scott seward, Thursday, November 23, 2017 8:38 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Are you guys really not talking w your friends about this? Or is this just pile on deej

i do kind of feel like piling on you. and i apologize. it's christmas! i'll stop. and go eat more pie.

guys ... maybe this is not the most productive use of this thread? and there are better ways to show how chill you are to women than snarking at each other itt

^^^

what is the optimum way to show how chill you are to women? asking for a friend.

Get entombed in a glacier, maybe?