Weinsteins step down as Miramax CEOs

what you are sure that a large % of dudes itt have done

hemiola iirc

Respecting another person's personal space is not something I've had to grapple with, no. And Simon OTM about punishing this behavior so that it is mitigated and hopefully one day extinguished.

― flappy bird, Thursday, November 23, 2017 7:46 PM (twenty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It doesn’t have to be a personal space violation exactly, again not the point, but I’m glad to hear everyone on this board has lived their entire lives in misogyny free zones

And I wasn’t arguing with Simon!

what are you sure that was done in this thread by a large percentage of dudes?
a distinctly difficult thing to say but harder still to do!
we'll beat a tattoo, at twenty to two, a rat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat tattoo,
and the dragon will come when he hears the drum, at a minute or two to two today, at a minute or two to two.

Also in case I’m not being explicit enough: I don’t believe you

(Xp)

It doesn’t have to be a personal space violation exactly, again not the point,

ok what is the point? that Weinstein and Franken are worlds apart? sure, their transgressions are definitely not the same. everything that Franken is accused of, it's not something I've had to grapple with, and I did not grow up in a trad leftwing household by any means. i don't know wtf kind of 'zone' you're talking about that involves unwanted physical moves or crude comments.

but I’m glad to hear everyone on this board has lived their entire lives in misogyny free zones

i've never groped an unconscious woman, no. are you talking about 'the locker room'? there's absolutely a difference between teenagers/college students talking about who they find attractive, perhaps in vulgar terms, and touching/kissing them w/o consent or saying sick shit to them. it's sort of common sense.

Also in case I’m not being explicit enough: I don’t believe you

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Thursday, November 23, 2017 9:31 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPEYDiBUYAAhX3Z.jpg

Almost every guy I’ve spoken w about this from a wide range of backgrounds has told me what’s been happening has them reflecting on their own behavior with women, pretty much to a man. And I don’t think (but don’t know) any of them have done anything illegal or dangerous per se, but it’s all a spectrum of male behavior that is implicitly and explicitly reinforced from the time we’re in pre school to the current day. Even studying the subject itself, reading bell hooks, whatever? I don’t think that really has made any men truly grapple w the extent of this, and I really think if you overly proclaim your innocence I just don’t trust you

- that wasn't my point
- i was talking about (something irrelevant)
- but really, it's universal
- exactly! that's what i said 420 posts ago
- no, you're missing my point again
- i'm a deep thinker, you just can't keep up

"Almost every guy I’ve spoken w about this from a wide range of backgrounds has told me what’s been happening has them reflecting on their own behavior with women, pretty much to a man."

http://nymag.com/daily/politics/20061107pollster.jpg

All of your imaginary friends are much better people than us

Or

All of your imaginary friends are much worse people than us

Admittedly neither statement would be all that shocking coming from a pair of clownshoes that can type

"I don’t think that really has made any men truly grapple w the extent of this"

https://i2.wp.com/www.marriagerevolution.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Mind-Reader.jpg

hey man you're the one that came out swinging with generalizations and calling people liars. Good luck on your survey

And I’m also not defending !! The Franken photo and I’m sorry if it came across that way ? Seems to me he thought he was doing a visual gag & totally overstepped boundaries but I also don’t believe most men on ilx haven’t overstepped appropriate behavior even one time in their lives — not groping someone per se but making a shitty joke at work, or saying something shitty about someone’s appearance, or ... I don’t know man, again this is for people to deal w personally, I’m just saying

"Almost every guy I’ve spoken w about this from a wide range of backgrounds has told me what’s been happening has them reflecting on their own behavior with women, pretty much to a man."

http://nymag.com/daily/politics/20061107pollster.jpg

― scott seward, Thursday, November 23, 2017 8:38 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Are you guys really not talking w your friends about this? Or is this just pile on deej

i do kind of feel like piling on you. and i apologize. it's christmas! i'll stop. and go eat more pie.

guys ... maybe this is not the most productive use of this thread? and there are better ways to show how chill you are to women than snarking at each other itt

^^^

what is the optimum way to show how chill you are to women? asking for a friend.

Get entombed in a glacier, maybe?

https://youtu.be/7PgaW596DKc

the worst Franken denier on my FB wall is a woman, i.e. she doesn't believe he did anything other than admit to what he did (some of you are friend with her).

for the record, i am not historically a pile on deej kinda guy. i like him! but his posts were bugging me and honestly i don't think the moral thread conscience/thread ombudsman/i know what people are REALLY thinking/who among us is not without sin kinda thing is fruitful here. nobody here is saying they are a blameless angel. and when you presume to speak for others/tell others how they really feel about something its...uh...presumptuous. speak for yourself. or have a conversation with others. but really i just blame a long day and too much turkey on my two withering and brutal images of a pollster and a mentalist guy.

I’m ok. W ending the convo here but i stand by this: I think there’s a danger in dissociating from “the bad guys” & not recognizing the true extent to which male entitlement is a part of society’s fabric

I feel like all the MRAs and anti-SJWs and "what's the big fucking deal?" bros are just dying for any one of these stories to reveal that an accuser was not being truthful. They'll probably explode. I bet it drives them nuts that every story, no matter what the charge, pretty much invites the same level of maximum vitriol towards the accused as a result (usually in response to the "apology"). It's a great way to make a point to society about how none of it is acceptable- I'm just imagining how it's driving those groups insane given they're well beyond learning anything from all of this.

They'd* (don't mean to imply that I think it's expected)

the worst Franken denier on my FB wall is a woman, i.e. she doesn't believe he did anything other than admit to what he did (some of you are friend with her).

Wait you’ve lost me - she thinks he didn’t do the thing he admitted?

*things

He denied part of it

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/greys-anatomy-boss-krista-vernoff-offers-point-by-point-rebuttal-brett-ratners-assault-claim-denials-1060772

Is that the part where he says he doesn’t remember but apologises any way? That seemed legit to me.

I thought he said he didn’t remember the event the same way which isn’t the same as saying he didn’t remember it but idk

Also totally possible what she said was right of course, and I’d rather benefit of the doubt go to her than him even if I am personally skeptical 🤨

do all the people who don't believe in the effectiveness of deterrents make an exception for this? the loud desire to ostracise offenders seems of a piece with people's testy reaction to any suggestion that this behaviour is part of a wider culture they're complicit in, reminds me of white outrage over accusations of racism

i don't know anyone here is dissociating from franken? i'm not. the fact that his joke photo is on a continuum with stupid disrespectful shit I've probably said and done makes loudly calling it out even more liberating and consequential

liberated from what?

from the shitty disrespectful person i could act like in the past, the person that was on a continuum with the franken photo

idk, i don't think denouncing a crime to no effect online takes me any further away from bad things i've done in the past. it feels more honest to admit the similarities rather than stress the difference. the fact that it feels good to morally condemn is a good reason to be wary of it, because it comes from wanting to assert that distance, to say I'm not one of them, protesting too much. the dissonance between how men think and talk about themselves and how they act has been one of the most interesting and serious issues highlighted in some of these cases. I don't think that's unusual really; people don't relate and identify with everything they do equally, they build narratives about themselves and so on, and this seems like a good opportunity to question them rather than reinforce them.

fair enough. i've found all this incredibly useful in terms of analysing my own behaviour and my past behaviour. the rage and outright condemnation i feel and express towards the abuse coming to light is in part a condemnation of the part of me that would have once justified that abuse, or ignored it. it feelsgoodman because i'm recognising, naming and disavowing. not pretending the work is done, it's not an evasion exercise.

xp to Deej: I checked and he kinds of splits the difference, the line is "While I don't remember the rehearsal for the skit as Leeann does, I understand why we need to listen to and believe women's experiences" which I guess you could see as an adaptable answer, pushing progressive principles while being open to the possibility that this is a hit.

I don’t think that really has made any men truly grapple w the extent of this, and I really think if you overly proclaim your innocence I just don’t trust you

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Thursday, November 23, 2017 6:36 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol what is this

sorry i guess the pile on is over. he does it to himself!!!

it really was something ppl are not raised to think about to the extent that’s now being discussed imo

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Thursday, November 23, 2017 7:39 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

just one more, amazing

i dont see why that's so 'amazing' or deserving of ridicule.

idk, i don't think denouncing a crime to no effect online takes me any further away from bad things i've done in the past. it feels more honest to admit the similarities rather than stress the difference. the fact that it feels good to morally condemn is a good reason to be wary of it, because it comes from wanting to assert that distance, to say I'm not one of them, protesting too much. the dissonance between how men think and talk about themselves and how they act has been one of the most interesting and serious issues highlighted in some of these cases. I don't think that's unusual really; people don't relate and identify with everything they do equally, they build narratives about themselves and so on, and this seems like a good opportunity to question them rather than reinforce them.

― ogmor, Friday, 24 November 2017 09:23 (seven hours ago) Permalink

o.t.m.

fair enough. i've found all this incredibly useful in terms of analysing my own behaviour and my past behaviour. the rage and outright condemnation i feel and express towards the abuse coming to light is in part a condemnation of the part of me that would have once justified that abuse, or ignored it. it feelsgoodman because i'm recognising, naming and disavowing. not pretending the work is done, it's not an evasion exercise.

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Friday, November 24, 2017 3:57 AM (seven hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i identify w this to an extent too, i certainly dont want to say im against condemnation!

"I don’t think that really has made any men truly grapple w the extent of this" was a reference to i.e. studying bell hooks, the point was the conversation, where it is now, is highlighting ways in which we have historically ignored this conversation, that wasn't an effort at even making some novel point but is almost banally true, & i think the notion has been mentioned in articles ppl have posted in passing

but keep reading me in bad faith for your own entertainment i guess

the dissonance between how men think and talk about themselves and how they act has been one of the most interesting and serious issues highlighted in some of these cases
otm!

sometimes i think pile ons are caused by the dissonance between what a man thinks he is doing and saying and how others interpret those two things

(not always, but in this case that seems to be true -- i don't honestly think deej is doing much more than reflecting on his own complicity in the creation of a pervasive misogynist climate. i think this is good even if it comes out weird. if a man doesn't want to confront his complicity, openly or silently to himself, i think that man is not working hard enough to understand his own role in the patriarchy. this is just my feeling)

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/42680-punishing-predators-will-not-save-us

don't see what in those deej posts was objectionable enough to get trampled underfoot in a #notallmen stampede tbh, LL otm