hall of fame, next vote...

has this ever been posted?

https://baseballpastandpresent.com/2012/07/19/hall-fame-circle/

it's a fun read, trying to identify the top 50 inner-circle HOFers via a vote back in 2012. it was apparently organized by graham womack, who somehow managed to not include his own name anywhere on his own website

I've participated in two or three of Graham's poll, including that one. I think he culled my name from regular posters on High Heat Stats (a site I eventually lost interest in).

freshly said

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-hall-of-fame-isnt-worth-our-time/

heh, yeah that's where i got the link posted

the hof is only discussed because it's the dead time of the baseball year, especially when the hot stove isn't active. we are bored

If you're not not-interested in the HOF, some research on living inductees vs. dead ones (the subtext being Morgan's letter and changing attitudes toward PEDs).

http://www.billjamesonline.com/the_living_hall_of_fame/

Jaffe's been doing these at SI

https://www.si.com/mlb/2017/11/28/edgar-martinez-hall-fame-ballot

Ballot #28, from Bill Livingston (https://t.co/GhfMy0OgAe), who submitted a blank ballot last year, which is different from abstaining. In the Tracker: https://t.co/EHQYbIMnWo pic.twitter.com/L9FdSqM8Xg

— Ryan Thibodaux (@NotMrTibbs) December 7, 2017

wow, Jim Thome is doing extremely well

612 HR w/ no smoking needle

bill apparently forgot that manny and kerry wood also played for the indians

yeah i figured Thome would get in but i wasn't sure if he would get in the first year. Surprised that he's leading Chipper even at this early stage, though they could easily swap places considering how many ballots remain.

Vizquel is going to be the new Jack Morris. He'll last the full ten years, his advocates will cherry-pick weird combinations of numbers to argue his case, and he may climb as high as ~60%, but--correctly, I'd say--he won't go in.

i'm not sure what they'll point to besides the 11 gold gloves. he was a below-league-average hitter in 22 of his 24 seasons, and anyone who really believes in defensive metrics is going to have to deal with the less savory numbers as well

not remotely an Ozzie Smith

(xpost) The first thing they'll point to seems obvious (not me talking here; I think Jaffe also constructed the case for, before easily dismantling it): the near-2,900 hits, most for a shortstop (at shortstop) after Wagner. Next, I would think, would be his stolen bases. He'll become the only 2,900+ hit/400+ SB/11 Gold-Glove-winning shortstop ever.

Obviously, zero context at all. (Little things like the non-existence of the Gold Glove 100 years ago.) As you point out, all those singles didn't mean a whole lot without much of anything to go with them (and in a massively high-offense era besides).

As predicted:

Then there’s Vizquel, whose 45.3 WAR is dwarfed by the 76.5 of Ozzie Smith, the shortstop he is most compared to. Sorry. You can’t tell me there was that much of a difference between these two superb defensive shortstops, especially when Vizquel hit .272 lifetime to Ozzie’s .262 and his 2,877 hits are the third most of any shortstop in history.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/war-shouldn-heavily-emphasized-baseball-hof-voting-article-1.3684618

Clearly the writer here verges on caricature. My only point was that this drumbeat will linger for the next 10 years, just as it did with Morris.

vizquel had one season with more than 3.5 fWAR, ozzie had ten.

is 3.5 cherrypicked? you bet your ass

https://simpsonswiki.com/w/images/1/14/Omar_Vizquel.png

Jack Morris and Trammel in via committee. I can totally see Jack Morris becoming a too-vocal crank waxing nostalgic about the sanctity of The Hall and His Day.

Fuck Jack Morris.

morris instead of simmons, baloney sandwich

And Morris received one more vote than Trammell. I...

Congratulations to Alan Trammell, now need to start working on getting Lou Whitaker. They cannot have one without the other, it's one of the classic middle infields ever in baseball history.

ted simmons was a vote short. marvin miller was 5 short.

what a stupid hall of fame, i don't even know why i pay attention

Trammell getting in is quite awesome. Morris is the opposite.

Sports outlets should send only women to cover his induction and interview him

good ol' jack morris. he sure did eat a lot innings for some decent teams and not get injured and did really well in the world series that one time

all kidding aside his best single season WAR was almost as good as Braves ace Kevin Millwood's best.

I guess you could take solstice that Jack Morris getting in probably makes Curt Schilling mad.

I mean the baseball literati response is them looking forward to another 50 dudes being good enough for the HOF now including Kevin Brown

Kevin Brown iirc did not have a bushy gamer mustache, total false grail, so he's out

Trammell aside, worst baseball weekend in the history of December

Alan Trammell getting in is the VC at its best: honoring an all-time great the BBWAA just missed.

Jack Morris getting in is the VC at its typical: inducting a player who, while very good, clearly fell short of HoF standards.

Marvin Miller not getting in is the VC at its worst.

— Rany Jazayerli (@jazayerli) December 10, 2017

seriously voters are so swayed by a catchy name and a mustache. Dude was sub-chuck finley (no shame, chuck was hall of very good at his best!)

Maybe Luis Tiante and Jim Kaat or Tommy John will now get the call.

Mickey Lolich out pitched Bob Freaking Gibson in his 7th game.

better pitchers who were contemporaries of Jack Morris and who won't make the Hall: Stieb, Saberhagen, Gooden, Cone, Viola, Valenzuela, Key, Reuschel, Steve Rogers...but lots of injuries in the mix there, so they have to give it to the durable second-tier guy...

Ron Guidry and Mark Langston too. At their peak, vastly better.

The "Modern Era" is supposed to cover players whose main contributions were between 1970-1987. Morris' Game 7 shouldn't count!

"Now I'm getting analyzed by a bunch of numbers and things that didn't exist when I played," (Morris) said. "Had they existed, maybe I would have had a better understanding of what it would have meant to not pitch through pain, to not go deeper into games on nights that I told my manager 'I'm fine' when I wasn't. But I don't regret doing that because if you go to the wall and never try to push down the wall, you'll never know if you can."

Yep, today's pitchers can use "numbers" to hide the fact that they don't have any guts. Welcome to the HOF Jack Morris, you'll fit right in.

Enjoyed watching him pitch -- fond memory of watching his no-hitter -- but I don't recall ever thinking he was a potential Hall candidate. Don't recall any media chatter about his chances, either. It was all Whitaker and Trammell. Even the bullshit stats can be used against him. "Winningest pitcher of the '80s" but I think he was second-losingest too. Career ERA nearly 4.00.

All-time sucker for "I don't talk to women when I'm naked unless they're on top of me or I'm on top of them."

Posnanski should have something good on this. He's written approximately 700,000 words on Morris and the HOF the past decade.

Radio report by a non-sports guy this morning was priceless. He said that Morris will "likely go in wearing a Tigers hat"--yeah, I would think so--and that Trammell would also "likely go in wearing a Tigers hat"; that's an even better bet, unless he opts for one of his minor league teams. He then said that Bonds and Clemens missed again, seemingly oblivious to the context.

Even the bullshit stats can be used against him. "Winningest pitcher of the '80s" but I think he was second-losingest too.

Not that it matters, but I wonder if he'd still be the winningest if you shift that one year either way, say '79-88 or '81-90. That distinction may be extra dubious.

(Meaning someone like Spahn or Clemens is going to hold that 10-year-window lead for a long period of time; Morris may just be in sync with the calendar.)

Bartolo Colon and Brad Radke for HOF

not while Kevin Tapani is on the outside looking in, amigo

i'm not as mad about morris as most people are. he does have a point that much (though certainly not all) of the case against him is based on ways of understanding the game that were not around during his time. furthermore, it seems as though current HOFers want him in their club. obviously he shouldn't be in (and there are others who didn't get in who have better cases), but given that he was elected by people in the game rather than the writers, it's not the end of the world to me

I see, so it's a smoking club now.

This badly needs a Cooperstown rewrite... "Blow it up before ANDY PETTITTE makes a speech!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oLI9JH5v-E

i don't really have a good perspective on a lot of these guys but it's insane to me that marvin miller still didn't get in

when i was growing up as a huge baseball fan, i never thought of Jack Morris as a top tier pitcher and i was OBSESSED with baseball. like the players who were the best were pretty clear to me: Schmidt, Henderson, Raines, Murphy, Boggs, Sandberg, Winfield, Ripken, Murray, etc. the pitchers i remember were guys like the ones i mentioned upthread, i mean Dave Stieb towered above Morris as a pitcher, he just didn't have those pesky wins.

esp passing up the opportunity to put his plaque opposite BOWIE FUCKING KUHN'S xp

zero expectations, the HOF is a shitshow