Weinsteins step down as Miramax CEOs

oh i understand it now. I am too old to be hip to this millenial failsonning lingo you ilxors like to toss about

please keep the star wars talk in its own thread

That Shiori Ito story is another reminder that some parts of the NYT deserve to exist

:)

hot take

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/05/opinion/golden-globes-metoo.html

By DAPHNE MERKIN

umm

Not sure if I mentioned this before but I wonder if any of the thousands of women Castro is supposed to have had sex with will say anything.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/film/four-women-accuse-filmmaker-paul-haggis-of-sexual-misconduct/article37513276/

Ben Vereen apologizes to Hair actresses

http://variety.com/2018/legit/news/ben-vereen-accused-sexual-harassment-1202654320/

haggis is the scientology escapee, no? i could see this being an opportunistic plot to take him down coordinated by scientology. or maybe he's just a shitty person, which is equally plausible.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to make a call one way or another but I had the same initial reaction about Haggis. This is exactly how the CoS goes after those who've gotten out, and I can totally see them using the current flurry of allegations as a smokescreen.

or on the other hand, like in the overwhelming majority of cases where multiple women accuse a man of sexual harassment/abuse, he might just be an abuser

true. also he is a shitty filmmaker.

that merkin article is fucking stupid. is anyone actually equating flirting with the stuff we are talking about? what kind of fucking strawman argument is that?

Yeah, loads of blokes are..

daphne merkin sucked 20 years ago when she was writing about spanking in the new yorker too

fucking tina brown

maura I have earnestly valued yr insights into long-running hacks in media

otm

thanks! it's important especially now that nobody has an institutional memory and the trump administration has seemingly flushed out every '90s hack. can't wait for elizabeth wurtzel's take on all thi—oh lol

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/10/17/villains-like-harvey-weinstein-arent-new-villains-getting-caught-is/?utm_term=.877196a659d3

haha

Wurtzel! Slooooowly I turn....

daphne merkin sucked 20 years ago when she was writing about spanking in the new yorker too

I know she's written other things, but that's the first thing I think of when I see her mentioned.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2018/01/05/he-said-she-said-she-said-she-said-the-new-york-times-will-send-a-message-in-golden-globes-ad/?__twitter_impression=true&tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.669377ba8a4c

> is anyone actually equating flirting with the stuff we are talking about

The GHWBush and AlFranken allegations skirt this territory. Personally, were I politically ambitious, I would keep my hands visible (and above shoulder level) in all photographs.

I'm all for someone with moral authority articulating red lines for where flirting edges into acts that make others uncomfortable. Alas, its a huge grey zone, and no one is drawing clear lines. Even in this thread there are people who find complements about hair styles creepy. Better to not risk it.

There's a glib assumption that everyone knows what's appropriate. Lots of us don't. We don't intentionally flirt, we shy away from touch because we don't know where the lines are drawn. Now that I know that complimenting someone on their hair can come off creepy, its yet another form of human interaction foreclosed. Those of you who think that everyone intuits the lines, and they don't need to be clearly designated, had a richer social upbringing than some of us.

There's a glib assumption that everyone knows what's appropriate. Lots of us don't. We don't intentionally flirt, we shy away from touch because we don't know where the lines are drawn. Now that I know that complimenting someone on their hair can come off creepy, its yet another form of human interaction foreclosed. Those of you who think that everyone intuits the lines, and they don't need to be clearly designated, had a richer social upbringing than some of us.

― Sanpaku, Saturday, January 6, 2018 10:44 PM (seventeen seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's not even just a matter of everyone knowing or not what is appropriate, it's knowing what is appropriate for different/individual people. If one acknowledges that and takes his or her behaviour from there you're well on the good path.

I think people do intentionally flirt, well some of us do (and I know I at times do), but only when it's completely clear that it is ok between me and that other person. And complimenting someone shouldn't be conflated with flirting either imo. I complimented a cashier I meet regularly on her new hair colour recently, because a) it looks great and b) I knew she'd wholly appreciate a compliment on it. It wan't even flirting. It was giving a compliment to someone you know will appreciate it.

But I agree a lot of people don't intuit the lines, though. And one should know that giving a compliment can for the other person feel like flirting. In which case one should refrain from doing so. Think of what the other person would respect, and if you don't know, steer clear. Don't be an asshole. It's a shame a lot of people don't intuitively know what is right or wrong or - regardless of upbringing - don't have that radar.

Aside from inprisonment/ostracisation of the real sexual predators, the one thing I hope results from this is some clarification of where those red lines are. I think that there would be a vast difference even among avowed feminists as to where those lines are, and of the editorals, I'm most interested in the those that attempt to draw them.

I think we can all agree to not touch without clear consent, and not make overtures if told no. More debatable, but I think most might agree to not comment on parts of appearance a person has little control over, at least with strangers. To include not mentioning weight unless someone is clearly fishing for complements on their diet. But haircut/haircolor? I think most can agree that those aren't creepy: its the leering person who says them that is.

But it would certainly be nice if someone would provide a guide as to where the consensus is, if there is one. A set of rules. For those of us that don't know, at present job safety means silence.

there is no ultimate set of "not being a creep cheat codes" that apply equally, which is sorta the point?? you're not listening to what LBI is saying: it's knowing what is appropriate for different/individual people. If one acknowledges that and takes his or her behaviour from there you're well on the good path. i.e. you have to actually pay attention to the person you're talking to, put yourself in their shoes, to understand where to draw the line and guess what - that line might shift tomorrow depending on a lot of other stuff and it's up to you to stay sensitive to those shifts too. nobody ever said scoring was easy eh?

if the price of people not getting harrassed or fucked with, at work or anywhere else, is that some dudes feel a little unsure about whether or not they should put the moves on someone, that's an utterly tiny price to pay

but if you want a hard and fast rule? don't try to date people you work with, period. if the time ever comes for that rule to be broken, you'll know. it'll be as plain as the nose on your face.

yea dating colleagues is suuuuuuch a bad idea imo and ime

as far as complimenting strangers- a lot of that has to do with tone. you can say "Nice hair color" in many different ways...

Not trying to put moves on anyone. Just want to avoid career disgrace. I will remain silent til someone writes an authoritative guide. If you think this is easy, you're not on the spectrum.

“what about the men” - men

Tracer, thanks for clarifying what I couldn't get across more eloquently or clear, as that's exactly what I meant. There isn't a "guide to consensus" or "cheat codes" (ew). Sanpaku, you'll not find a golden rule about what's ok and what isn't from this, as you say is your desire. That doesn't exist now and didn't exist before Weinstein, simply because this is about people, individuals, and the interaction between them, about knowing where the line is. If you find it hard to tell, rest assured it's a line not to cross. It feels kind of icky having to spell this out...

don't try to date people you work with, period.

I never have; tried to only once, and did with an ex-co-worker just once.

But where does that leave showbiz? They marry each other all the time.

So, the death of compliments, flirtatious or not. If saying someone's haircut or color is great is potentially sexual harassment, then there's a clear lesson: don't complement.

This is easy for me. I was told my sexual instincts would result in my death from AIDs in my teen years. I was warned about so much as touching drunken girls who collapsed in my bed in college. I gave up on intimacy with other humans decades ago. I haven't flirted or dated in decades. I have nothing to fear, or to lose.

But there are others who are younger and need a framework for how to build contact with other human beings. If this current public attention to acceptable and unacceptable behavior results in a clearer framework, then good. If it just makes social connection more vexing, we'll learn about it from the tallies of solitary never marrieds, birthrates, and suicides.

The kids will figure it out. They don't need old people to tell them how. That's the most certain thing in any of this.

otm

I think they already have...

also - get this - every generation has spent its horniest years being completely confused about how to do this

and Sanpaku, I don't mean that to be dismissive of the points you raise. I'm trying to be reassuring.

I'd give you a pat on the back and maybe a hug for making it through what you've had to deal with, if that would be okay with you.

What one learns in coding is that if you can't define, explicitly, what you want from a system, you don't understand it at all.

The range between wholly uninterested complement, to flirtation, to borderline harassment is very broad, and after months of this, we still don't have a heuristic for how those who might like to complement, but would also like to avoid potential for future career termination, should behave.

Saying it depends on the individual and situation is saying you are also clueless. If we can't find a consensus on this, then the safest course will remain silence.

every generation has spent its horniest years being completely confused about how to do this

otmfm

That's my disappointment with the present moment. It's an opportunity to clearly demarcate red lines, but as there's been practically zero effort to this end, its been mostly establishing that some celebrities are indeed creeps, and that some people will use the moment to political ends.

sanpaku the only thing i can say is that if you really think your compliments are going to be misinterpreted as come-ons then i think you're right to hold off on compliments until you feel more sure of how you come across.

and you really gotta get away from this red line thing. everyone's different, and everyone's relationship to you is different. there is no template.

OK, I like a challenge. Here's how to do this

1. If you want to say a nice thing about somebody's looks, you do it with NO ULTERIOR MOTIVE whatsoever, and you only say it about things that person has agency over. You can mention that a haircut / dye job looks great. You can talk about fashion choices. You can even, if you couch it right, mention other cosmetic choices, like "hey, can I just say, your toenails look great with that color." But you do this in when you are complimenting without concern for your future bedmate options. Strictly. It is not to be done as an opener to hitting one anyone. Easy enough? Good.

2. If you want to hug someone or pat them on the back, ask them if that's okay. "Can I give you a hug?" "I think you deserve a pat on the back, is that ok?" Again, this is done with NO expectations of further contact or intimacy.

3. If you want to compliment somebody as an opening gambit on the way to furtive glances over coffee or wine or whatever, then the subject of the compliment had better be something more substantial than the shape of their buttocks or their inseam or what the fuck ever. "I thought the way you handled that situation the other day was amazing. Would you be interested in [innocuous activity in a public place] sometime together, just you and me?"

This is an incomplete guide to not being a creep. But does it seem helpful?

xp:
Do you understand, that if you generalize this instruction, it means that no person should flirt? Because among the range of individuals, some outlier will interpret complementing a haircut as harassment.

I complement others maybe once every few months, but not at my place of work. A week ago I complemented the woman who staffs the storage I rent on her new haircut. She smiled and seemed happy that someone noticed. I had no sexual interest in her, just wanted to brighten the day of a middle aged woman stuck behind a desk with no windows.

However, the assumption that the kids will figure this out, or that everyone will come to understand the norms, assumes that others share your intuitions, social background, and experience. Maybe adequate for the sloppy reasoning of legal work, but a nonstarter for clarity. If everyone can come to a conclusion that sexualization of coworkers is problematic, but no one can come to a set of guidelines to prevent it absolutely, while permitting friendly socialization, it just perpetuates the problem. Those who find the new social world confounding just turtle up, those who look for loopholes continue to do so.

El Tomboto: that's the sort of thing I think should be hashed over in the mass media, yes.

Do you understand, that if you generalize this instruction, it means that no person should flirt? Because among the range of individuals, some outlier will interpret complementing a haircut as harassment.

wait are you flirting or complimenting someone's haircut?

i feel like there is a really big, basic thing that is getting in the way of us understanding each other here and i wish i knew what it was!

there are no red lines. there is reading the room and being respectful of the person you’re communicating with by listening to them and talking to them and, yes, ditching your ulterior motives. if you’re on the spectrum you’ll have to work harder, which sucks and is unfair but also: that’s life.

(can we move this tangent to another thread because it’s sort of annoying to have this discussion marshaled by men. thank you)