Stalin - classic or dud

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (730 of them)
Macedonian. Stalin's zeal was arguably not for Russia though, as Alexander's wasn't really for Greece.

The Man in the Iron-On Mask (noodle vague), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:08 (eighteen years ago) link

For an ideology that's supposed to be scientific and forwardthinking, I cannot understand why adherents or sympathisers would want to be that (a) that blind to the failings of the Soviet economy, and (b) that nostalgic.

M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:08 (eighteen years ago) link

His treatment of returning soldiers was enough for me to dismiss any good things he might have done; men who escaped from fucking Nazi camps were especially suspect. Imagine fleeing from a Nazi camp just to be sent to Siberia, if not shot outright.

It's telling that German soldiers would walks 200+ miles to be captured by the Americans.

andy --, Monday, 30 January 2006 20:15 (eighteen years ago) link

it's people like stalin that challenge the "human history is a history of ideas, not people" thing - swap in almost anyone else and the entire world is totally different

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:19 (eighteen years ago) link

Ned, the bit I quoted comes in a chapter in which Hobsbawm details the flaws and tragedies of the Soviet experiment, as well as pointing out its achievements (the mass education programs, the defeat of Hitler, the immunity of the system to the Great Depression). You can point out the successes without being an apologist for the regime.

Cathy (Cathy), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:20 (eighteen years ago) link

It's telling that German soldiers would walks 200+ miles to be captured by the Americans.

I think German policy in the occupied Soviet Union might have a lot to do with that.

The Man in the Iron-On Mask (noodle vague), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:22 (eighteen years ago) link

. Point to the works of art which the Soviet era is famous for that AREN'T Socialist Realism posters or the national anthem.

The early Soviet era (pre-Socialist Realism) - revolutionary era blending into Lenin with stragglers into Stalinism was ripe with art. Rodchenko and Malevich and El Lissitzky, Constructivism/Suprematism, etc. Eisenstein and early Soviet film, of course.

Also, The Man With The Camera and I Am Cuba for later achievements. And Tarkovsky.

Also at issue is our insularity - westerners in general know relatively little about the painting or the photography or the writing of the later Soviet era, and film knowledge is largely confined to those who broke into the Euro art film market (Tarkovsky), but not much about popular film making.

Erick Dampier is better than Shaq (miloaukerman), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:23 (eighteen years ago) link

You can point out the successes without being an apologist for the regime.

You can also treat the failures with more than a 'well, shucks, it was bound to hurt anyway' diffidence.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:28 (eighteen years ago) link

Ballad of a Soldier is good!

andy --, Monday, 30 January 2006 20:29 (eighteen years ago) link

Shostakovich and Prokofiev are rather good too.

Masked Gazza, Monday, 30 January 2006 20:29 (eighteen years ago) link

vertov's man wiv movie camera was fairly early on, wasn't it?

dovzhenko's "earth"

kuleshov

meyerhold

all totally brilliant

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:31 (eighteen years ago) link

the immunity of the system to the Great Depression

ts: the great depression vs collectivization/"liquidation" as a "kulak"/mass famine

mookieproof (mookieproof), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:35 (eighteen years ago) link

See Natasha's Dance: A cultural history of Russia for an excellent study of the effects of Lenin and Stalin on Russian art.

jocelyn (Jocelyn), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:36 (eighteen years ago) link

ts: the great depression vs collectivization/"liquidation" as a "kulak"/mass famine

Not to mention that maybe if there hadn't been all those military purges then just maybe the Nazis wouldn't have been so successful as they were initially. And how much further death was the result?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:38 (eighteen years ago) link

On the flipside - without Stalin's rapid industrialization of the '20s/'30s, could the Soviets have outlasted the Nazi blitz?

Erick Dampier is better than Shaq (miloaukerman), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:41 (eighteen years ago) link

Dovzhenko - awesome awesome awesome. Vertov is pretty early on - late 20s IIRC. Also worth checking out are Mikheil Kalatozishvili's "The Cranes are Flying," which is a great thaw-era picture and Tengiz Abuladze's "Repentance" (from the 80's) which deals intensely with Stalinism and is really visually stunning and dreamy.

ZR (teenagequiet), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:43 (eighteen years ago) link

"Where are the bolshois of the west? There aren't any."
In the Soviet system, the only works the Bolshoi were allowed to perform were in the strict classical Vaganova method repetoire. They may have produced the best technical dancers, but their artistic talent fled to the West with Balanchine, Nureyeev, et al. Because those people, people who wanted to choreograph, were tired of only being able to do endless productions of Swan Lake, Sleeping Beauty, et al. The Bolshoi and the Kirov didn't even perform Ballet Russes classics like The Firebird, Rite of Spring, Petroushka.

jocelyn (Jocelyn), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:45 (eighteen years ago) link

You can also treat the failures with more than a 'well, shucks, it was bound to hurt anyway' diffidence

That isn't how I understand Hobswbawm's attitude at all. But, oh well.

Cathy (Cathy), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:50 (eighteen years ago) link

Even someone like Hobsbawm whose thinking is essentially in the correct direction is plagued by externalities, lack of access to accurate information etc and has to rely on corrupt western information news sources. These "objective" observers obviously have a vested interest in painting as dark a picture as possible of most of the SU's most successful and transformative policies and programs. So someone like Hobsbawm is stuck trying to separate exaggeration of systemic shortfalls from outright libellous "reporting" and analysis.

bethune, Monday, 30 January 2006 22:11 (eighteen years ago) link

popular film making

Anybody seen "Night Watch"?

kingfish kuribo's shoe (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 30 January 2006 22:16 (eighteen years ago) link

Even someone like Hobsbawm whose thinking is essentially in the correct direction is plagued by externalities, lack of access to accurate information etc and has to rely on corrupt western information news sources.

Katyn Forest Massacre

These "objective" observers obviously have a vested interest in painting as dark a picture as possible of most of the SU's most successful and transformative policies and programs.

The Artificial Famine/Genocide in Ukraine 1932-33

Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 30 January 2006 22:26 (eighteen years ago) link

Who was it in Stalin's government(if not the guy itself) who came up with the idea to shoot(or at least threaten) any soviet troops who tried to retreat in WWII?

kingfish kuribo's shoe (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 30 January 2006 22:31 (eighteen years ago) link

bethune, you can't libel the dead. Happily, Stalin is dead.

Mike W (caek), Monday, 30 January 2006 22:31 (eighteen years ago) link

Every Stalinist apologist I know has the same line - it's all western lies, none of it ever happened! (mysteriously, these people also make the same claim about Milosevic. And probably Kim Il whatever.) Yet there is never a single source to uphold the opposing viewpoint. But I guess it's easier to cheer on Stalin when you've convinced yourself he's the victim of a giant media conspiracy without cracks.

Having quasi-left wing versions of Holocaust deniers is a major bummer.

Erick Dampier is better than Shaq (miloaukerman), Monday, 30 January 2006 22:34 (eighteen years ago) link

I have read the age of revolution by Hobsbawm. It was okay.
Stalin isn't okay.

jeffrey (johnson), Monday, 30 January 2006 22:44 (eighteen years ago) link

I didn't say there were no other points of view. There may have been some systemic irregularities, as I've said. Still contrast this with the cheney-rove killing machines we're experiencing now. I think you'll find it changes your perspective.

bethune, Monday, 30 January 2006 22:48 (eighteen years ago) link

That is a poor troll.

Mike W (caek), Monday, 30 January 2006 22:50 (eighteen years ago) link

Can we contrast Stalinist killing machines with US systemic irregularities instead if we want?

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Monday, 30 January 2006 22:51 (eighteen years ago) link

Milosevic is rather a different case though. There actually is huge doubt about whether he was the genocidal tyrant he was made out to be in the Western media, and it seems credible to me that his crimes have been greatly exaggerated (and those of the KLA and NATO played down or ignored) in order to provide justification for the war (after all, most of the charges against him are for events that occurred after the start of the NATO bombing campaign). I tried to start a thread about this once but it died.

I really like The Age of Revolution. I love Hobsbawm's throwaway details, and his painting-with-broad-strokes style. Not for everyone though, I'm sure.

Cathy (Cathy), Monday, 30 January 2006 22:53 (eighteen years ago) link

Bethune, if you don't mind me asking, who are you? What is your experience with all this? Where are you getting your information?

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:02 (eighteen years ago) link

How many deaths would you estimate that this "Cheney Rove Killing Machine" has caused? Somewhere in the low tens of thousands?

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:05 (eighteen years ago) link

Low tens of thousands? Er, Bush admits to 30,000 in Iraq alone so you know it's higher than that! (Likely much, much higher.)

TRG (TRG), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:25 (eighteen years ago) link

Can I second Mr Berman's request? Bethune, please do give us sources for your information. Perhaps I am in need of re-education, and perhaps it might be interesting to have my perspective changed. I have seen photographs (courtesy of Orlando Figes, among others) of peasants starving during the collectivisation. I have seen photographs and government files on dissenters who were executed (David King's Ordinary Citizens, pictured somewhere upthread). Where would I go to find them un-starved? Or un-shot?

Nicholas Passant (Nicholas Passant), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:26 (eighteen years ago) link

Hobsbawm is great, or usually great.

TRG (TRG), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:27 (eighteen years ago) link

Low tens of thousands? Er, Bush admits to 30,000 in Iraq alone so you know it's higher than that! (Likely much, much higher.)


I don't think these people are exactly Bush admin lackeys:

http://iraqbodycount.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=cffe318d74f5e5222e778f6f0517a744&submit3=Enter+Site

And I'm pretty sure they're including people killed by insurgents.

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:28 (eighteen years ago) link

Cathy said:
There actually is huge doubt about whether he was the genocidal tyrant he was made out to be in the Western media

Eek. No. He was. Really.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/itn/article/0,2763,184815,00.html


Some will say that Living Marxism won the "public relations battle", whatever that is. Others will cling to the puerile melodrama that ITN's victory in the high court yesterday was that of Goliath over some plucky little David who only wanted to challenge the media establishment.

But history - the history of genocide in particular - is thankfully built not upon public relations or melodrama but upon truth; if necessary, truth established by law. And history will record this: that ITN reported the truth when, in August 1992, it revealed the gulag of horrific concentration camps run by the Serbs for their Muslim and Croatian quarry in Bosnia.

http://zope06.v.servelocity.net/hjs/sections/greater_europe/document.2005-11-21.8955930068

In 2003, the left-wing Swedish magazine Ordfront published an interview with Johnstone, which repeated her revisionist, genocide-denying views of the Bosnian war. This provoked massive outrage on the part of members of Ordfront’s editorial board and readers, leading to resignation of the editor and a public apology by the magazine for the pain it had caused to Bosnian genocide survivors.

Mike W (caek), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:29 (eighteen years ago) link

Trotsky came out of the 20th century looking ok, but Stalin? It's a pretty embarrassing position. Jeez o peets!!

TRG (TRG), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:30 (eighteen years ago) link

Trotsky came out of the 20th century looking ok..

Kronstadt.

Nicholas Passant (Nicholas Passant), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:32 (eighteen years ago) link

Hurting - Iraqbodycount errors on the low side, as even they will admit. Andrew Cockburn makes the casethat it's much higher.

TRG (TRG), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:37 (eighteen years ago) link

One great thing about Adolf Hitler is that he makes Stalin look kind of OK.

I wonder do Gulag deniers and Holocaust deniers ever get together to recreate the Hitler-Stalin pact?

DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:46 (eighteen years ago) link

and mao might have killed more than hitler and stalin combined.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:47 (eighteen years ago) link

Let's not even get into per-capita genocidal maniacs.

Erick Dampier is better than Shaq (miloaukerman), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:51 (eighteen years ago) link

It will only lead to copycat crimes.

DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:52 (eighteen years ago) link

I have to wonder - if you take everything from the Boer War and Phillippines to WWI trenches to the Holocaust to Stalin's purges to the Cultural Revolution, to Vietnam/Laos and Pol Pot etc. on up through Iraq II - was there ever a more horrific 105-year period in human history? (In terms of man-made misery, of course.)

Erick Dampier is better than Shaq (miloaukerman), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:52 (eighteen years ago) link

Thanks for the Cockburn article -- I'm surprised I haven't seen anything about that before.

Nonetheless, you're talking about the total number of people killed as a result of an ill-considered and perhaps immoral military excursion, and even including the people killed by the insurgency the number is dwarved by what Stalin did.

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:53 (eighteen years ago) link

who was parade magazine's world's worst dictator for 1942?

mookieproof (mookieproof), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:54 (eighteen years ago) link

who was parade magazine's world's worst dictator for 1942?

Oswald Mosely? He was pretty shoddy.

Nicholas Passant (Nicholas Passant), Monday, 30 January 2006 23:57 (eighteen years ago) link

BTW, Bethune's e-mail domain site redirects you to this Real Estate company:

http://www.joneslanglasalle.com/en-GB/

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

was there ever a more horrific 105-year period in human history?

You'd have to compare death tolls as a percentage of the population. The 19th Century didn't do too bad: US Civil War; genocides of Native Americans, Australian Aborigines, Maoris; famine in Ireland; deaths brought about by industrialisation in various countries: disease, malnutrition, workplace accidents. Just off the top of my head that. Human beings have always been a lot better at killing each other than they are at looking after each other.

The Man in the Iron-On Mask (noodle vague), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

my dad is a stalinist

extrapolation...tomorrow

terry lennox. (gareth), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 00:01 (eighteen years ago) link


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.