Chapo Trap House and the rise of the dirtbag left

we're talking about a fringe candidate no???

like maybe i’m missing your point here but, again, ‘the conclusions they draw and their suggested solutions share very very little iirc’

one side wants to redress systematic inequalities through (for example) universal healthcare, free college tuition, and a fairer redistribution of wealth

the other side wants to redress systematic inequalities by blaming black and brown people for creating them, then killing a lot of people, directly or indirectly, in pursuit of ultimately creating a white ethnostate

not a lot of ideological crossover there even if they both agree that the us system is fucked

this is a more complex discussion than i should be getting into at 4:20 on a tuesday but the alt-right doesn't blame black and brown people for creating systemic inequalities. they blame Wall Street and the political class qua the Jews and they believe that the neoliberal political class is using immigration as a weapon to dilute their political interests by creating opposing interest groups. they may dream of ultimately establishing a white ethnostate but in the meanwhile they can work together on topics of shared interest. the white ethnostate is an ahistorical messianic goal (just like many of the left have their own ahistorical political goal) but they can still work together to neuter the parasites that are exploiting the american population. the left doesn't even have to agree with the ethnic character of said parasites in order to work w/ the alt-right (and sadly there are leftists who agree on this point as well).

this is a more complex discussion than i should be getting into at 4:20 on a tuesday

hell yeah brother blaze up

tbf I saw this piece/idea pretty much universally derided by the left when it was shared. A micro-fringe level of crossover isn’t impossible to believe.

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/lefties-need-to-stop-being-shy-about-working-with-the-anti-establishment-right-40c27a9dc98e

same w/ Zizek's similar pitch iirc

(re: derision)

uh i know what we are not supposed to say nagl but this is nagl

Chelsea Manning at my D.C. apt during a get together: not sure what "intel" could have been collected aside from the fact that I always win at Cards Against Humanity. Also, not exactly sure why a non-journalist would be attempting "investigations". pic.twitter.com/8u0TFZUxxr

— Lucian B. Wintrich (@lucianwintrich) January 24, 2018

I've seen almost no one who thinks "Russiagate is a fake scandal designed to draw attention away from the embarrassment of losing to Trump." "Something happened but it isn't why Hillary lost" and "something happened but nothing will come of it with a GOP Congress" are not the same as "fake scandal."

the white ethnostate is an ahistorical messianic goal (just like many of the left have their own ahistorical political goal)

enh revolutions against the ruling class have actual precedents, "peaceful" forced emigration not so much

you're not reading enough. there's def a "this scandal is fake" current. xp

simon, revolution isn't the end point. revolution is historical. the model society we build after the revolution is the ahistorical revelation.

xp From whom?

"something happened but nothing will come of it with a GOP Congress"

this and "something happened but the systemic rot at the heart of government is a much bigger problem" are the most common stances on the american left imo

Chelsea's candidacy is just leftist Oprah hysteria, like someone (jim?) said upthread she has no experience & it's all a cult of personality.

milo: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/01/glenn-greenwald-russia-investigation.html

Greenwald is the closest and even his arguments aren't "fake scandal."

his arguments are 100% "fake scandal"

but the alt-right doesn't blame black and brown people for creating systemic inequalities.

they kiiinda do tho!

the only "leftist" i can think of who is openly in favor of collaboration with the alt-right is a relatively minor internet writer named Caitlin Johnstone

i guess the elephant in the room is assange tho

yeah, xp, that's pretty much what I thought. I wouldn't begin to call Greenwald a voice of the left in the first place and even he doesn't say nothing happened.

kinda feel like all this stuff belongs more in the general left thread or the US politics thread

historically the left has not been immune to making weird alliances w/ far right groups based on shared anti-US/West/Colonialism sentiments

is assange leftist or bond villain libertarianism?

I wouldn't begin to call Greenwald a voice of the left in the first place and even he doesn't say nothing happened.

ok listen guys we were talking about chelsea manning. greenwald is in the same orbit as manning (and assange).

https://i.imgur.com/D8HGquU.jpg

The “fake scandal” line is something you see a lot. “It’s the liberals Benghazi” etc

historically the left has not been immune to making weird alliances w/ far right groups based on shared anti-US/West/Colonialism sentiments

not exactly sure why a non-journalist would be attempting "investigations"

yes why would a non-journalist be interested in knowing more about something?

well this is how i read the tankie phenomenon in general tho you could argue technically that's a weird alliance w/ far left groups that exhibit far right totalitarian tendencies. a more recent example might be judith butler: "Yes, understanding Hamas, Hezbollah as social movements that are progressive, that are on the Left, that are part of a global Left, is extremely important. That does not stop us from being critical of certain dimensions of both movements. It doesn’t stop those of us who are interested in non-violent politics from raising the question of whether there are other options besides violence." xp

the Russian stuff is symbolically important for Clinton cultists to prove they actually did win and don't need to change their strategy and can go on ignoring the left.

and in concert, dismissing the Russian stuff is symbolically important to make sure they aren't able to do that

please, leave the investigating to serious journalists like Lucian B. Wintrich

https://i.imgur.com/iAiZHqH.png

I've seen almost no one who thinks "Russiagate is a fake scandal designed to draw attention away from the embarrassment of losing to Trump." "Something happened but it isn't why Hillary lost" and "something happened but nothing will come of it with a GOP Congress" are not the same as "fake scandal."

― louise ck (milo z), Tuesday, January 30, 2018 3:37 PM (fifteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i like this post because i agree with these summaries

Greenwald def said 'fake scandal' until it became way too embarrassing, and then for a while longer. In general Mordy is otm, although imo the longterm possibility of the sides working together got killed by Trump and Unite the Right and does not have that much currency today. But Assange is pretty openly far right and has been so for a while, Greenwald is a beloved guest on Fox News, and Chelsea Manning was hanging around with fascists, so the signs are definitely there.

Or, the idea probably died with the murder of Heather Heyer.

still waiting for you to explain how chelsea manning "hurt a lot of people with her behaviour"

Or, the idea probably died with the murder of Heather Heyer

The fuck? It never being a valid, live idea at all might have something to do with why Heather was there in the first place.

seems like the important background position here is whether you think US foreign policy is horrible and has been for decades (hint it is it is it is it is)

protecting the integrity of our elections is like the A-1 solveable problem before us, and so the "russia scandal" could and should be conceived of in those terms -- right alongside the much worse effects of our own domestic billionaire class, the tech platforms, gerrymandering and suppression. but bigtime democrats aren't really speaking like that.

still waiting for you to explain how chelsea manning "hurt a lot of people with her behaviour"

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), 30. januar 2018 23:21 (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Many of the people she partied with were instrumental in GamerGate and other organized harassment campaigns, and it's definitely hurting the many many victims all over again for a wannabe prominent leftist to pal around with their harassers like that. As if their pain doesn't matter. Even the whole thing about 'gathering intel' is bullshit, because if you want to gather intel on harassment, you ask the victims, not the perpetrators.

Agreed.

Like with cable news hosts mainly focusing on Russia shit as it’s the most (relatively) safe thing to cover that doesn’t being any attention to how actual powerholders(in the party or otherwise) have set things up

Xpost

Many of the people she partied with were instrumental in GamerGate and other organized harassment campaigns, and it's definitely hurting the many many victims all over again for a wannabe prominent leftist to pal around with their harassers like that. As if their pain doesn't matter. Even the whole thing about 'gathering intel' is bullshit, because if you want to gather intel on harassment, you ask the victims, not the perpetrators.

― Frederik B, Tuesday, January 30, 2018 10:33 PM (eleven minutes ago)

gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that it was "definitely hurting" chelsea manning when she was imprisoned in horrific conditions for seven years by the u.s. government, and if you're going to pride yourself on sticking up for the victims of harassment campaigns you might try to avoid bragging about how you don't feel much sympathy for other people who suffered

Sure, but is that supposed to excuse her shitty behaviour? Are we supposed to not feel bad for the people she's hurting because she has been hurt herself?

even if she thinks that she can collaborate w/ the alt-lite that's not a moral failing, just a tactical one. either it's a good idea for her project to meet w/ these guys (promotes the project) or a bad idea (hurts the project), but if it were ultimately a good idea the fact that someone might be upset that she's doing it isn't a good reason for her not to do it. "shitty behavior" i think of behavior born out of selfish desires like self-gratification or greed or sloth. i get the impression that she tries to live up to a mission and did not visit cernovich bc of personal vices. and her contrition now seems v sincere.

a mistake is not a sin. and hanging out in the company of sinners is also not a sin (tho it's probably a bad idea in general since you can start to adopt the beliefs and ethos of the people you habitually find yourself among).

Again, you Americans have so weird responses when it comes to racism and fascism.

as usual yr carefully constructed not-ad-hom arguments have convinced me of the rightness of your difficult to discern opinion

how long, o lord, till fred gets banned again

There's just nothing to argue. Either you see racism/fascism as a personal blemish that you have to actively put on yourself, or you see it as a structural blemish you have some sort of personal responsibility to combat. And on here it feels as if it's always the first, and unless it's 150% obvious that someone has put this blemish on themself we should always give them the benefit of the doubt. And there's kinda no common ground to argue this.

Talking about 'sin' 'moral failures' and 'personal vices' is just obfuscation, imo, from the very clear and simple point that hanging around with fascists is, well, shitty.