thread to track Poptimism 2.0

i think whiney's characterization of poptimism in the op is subtly at odds with my own, but also recognize what he identifies as poptimism 2.0 as a thing

There was a conversation in early 2012 i'm thinking of (w/r/t Ann)

Year-End Critics' Polls 2011

i'm not sure i was right back then, but i think i was getting at something that felt kind of 'off' about a perceived poptimist status quo

like it felt like the way we wrestled w/ "pop" was very detached from earnest enthusiasm & was almost anthropological and dispassionate cataloguing of what teens listen to

i am possibly being hugely unfair to ann but i think there was something there that has been validated by the way the streaming economy completely shifted the sound of the 'pop charts' in something akin to the 80s/90s soundscan moment

I think that for most (especially young) people who would self-diagnose as "liking pop music" in some concrete, active sense, the actual commercial performance of any given piece of pop music is of decreasing importance - i.e. Carly Rae Jepsen and Rihanna and Lady Gaga and Charli XCX and Ariana Grande and Katy Perry and Meghan Trainor are all competing on broadly the same terrain for stans, which competition could broadly be boiled down to two zones of possible success (you need to succeed on one, but ideally both):

(a) quality x quantity of bops

(b) fierceness of instagram/twitter feed

In this sense "pop music" in the sense of genre has become detached from the charts and even commercial success to a much greater degree than whiney's opening post suggests - carly and the chainsmokers are much more aligned than they are opposed.

On basically every single possible level of this debate, the transformative impact of social media (which has become the space in which the enjoyment of popular music is performed) simply cannot be overstated.

t swift notably unfierce, which might explain the sudden critical volte-face at the first sign of weak bops

Looking back on that thread i think both you (deej) and lex were right, or perhaps rather the truth was the combination of your respective positions: "pop" moved from being what "just folks" listen to becoming a smaller, activated niche with a much more concrete sense of genre identity.

However, this is not a problem with criticism, IMO, but rather a real reaction to the fact that the patterns of music engagement are so much more decentralized than they used to be such that talking about what "just folks" listen to now is just not as relevant or meaningful: it's very difficult to point to a community of people who are primarily invested in "chart music".

i think ive veered slightly from the original convo but this was the post i was thinking about when you asked the question, tim, if there were actual professional critics who'd allowed the distorted version of poptimism to shape their work:

yeah i mean i don't mind the shopping at whole foods thing, or that she's writing to a generalist audience, i guess it's more that I don't get a sense of what she likes as much as a sense of what she thinks she needs to cover, all of which she's vaguely enthusiastic about, and as a result the coverage is of a fairly rote series of artists I guess? idk I guess I'd just like to see some more personality in it or something

idk I'm probably being unfair. at a certain pt. the job is covering what people are likely to care about. although i'm not sure that explains the tuneyards thing which is p niche right?

― Regional Thug (D-40), Wednesday, January 4, 2012 8:31 PM (six years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

haha, that was until last week the last time tune-yards was something i might talk about in an ilx post

i suppose there is nothing intrinsically conservative about chartpop now, as it's never really existed along a conservative/progressive scale - it's simply always been about consumer choice

i don't quite know how to express my disgust at music like the chainsmokers without finding recourse in phrases like 'conservative' or blaming algorithms. it's hard to express the firm opinion that chartpop is worse now than it was ten years ago because i'm forgetting that good stuff still sometimes does well and bad stuff still sometimes did well then. and that some of the good stuff is familiar, and some of the bad stuff is novel

perhaps one can say that nowadays it is simply easier to produce music that you know for sure will go viral, regardless of its worth as music. something like lukas graham feels like some sort of elaborate prank on humanity - 'here is something terrible and you're all gonna LOVE it. xoxo denmark'

that's what they said about Disco Duck though

perhaps one can say that nowadays it is simply easier to produce music that you know for sure will go viral

there are ppl throwing bullshit at the wall 24/7 trying to make it go viral. it is not 'easy'

if anything it's the work i see going into projects like Roy Purdy that makes them seem so swaggerless

what happened to rtc? i miss him during these debates

agreed

it would be interesting to track similarities between the more successful artists achieving widespread exposure through youtube etc

the chainsmokers literally built themselves up by looking at popular songs on hype machine and remixing them, piggybacking off the fame of already-known songs. many youtube sensations (including bieber here! but also pomplamoose) built up their follower counts by covering already popular songs. there is definitely a self-reinforcing aspect to pop music in this decade that's been accelerated by "most popular" lists being the most common means of discovery for new users, and it's hammered in further by search engines being both too literal and utterly fungible.

something that isn't talked about enough: the way streaming/track purchasing consumption is measured compared to album sales factors into the confusion about what, exactly, is "popular," or "pop." if you were one of the 162,000 people who bought WITNESS in its first week, even if you listened to it nonstop for a month, your consumption would count less than 200 people buying "chained to the rhythm" (which would count for 20 album-equivalent units) or 6000 people streaming its first 30 seconds then peacing out because there was a new song by someone else (which would count for four album-equivalent units). the math is really screwy (and, as post malone and his label proved last year, extremely susceptible to shenanigans). WITNESS was a crappy record that reflected the conservatism plaguing pop in the late 2010s, but i do have a sense that its actual popularity was measured a bit short.

probably related to the previous point: lorde (82,000 first-week album sales) sells out arenas so i'm not sure if "one-hit wonder" is a precise enough term for her brand of popularity.

also i think there's a big difference between the sort of writing that pops on social media – the posts with bumper-sticker headlines that focus on the Big Name of That Week and shoehorn their records into whatever sort of shareable opinion will pop at that time – and the original popist idea. maybe that's why "anti-rockism" is a better way to go, although given the way "pro-life" works better than "anti-abortion" in rhetorical discourse even though the latter description is, you know, more accurate, it seems like saying you're an anti-anything cedes too much ground to your antagonists.

(and yeah, narrative plays into this a lot. the "squeak of the resistance" discourse around cardi b probably helped her transphobic comments be not much of A Thing...)

the chainsmokers talk about their strategy in this billboard interview

The group’s strategy came to them after remixing a favorite song by Sigur Ros singer Jonsi: They would make dance versions of the indie tracks charting on music blog aggregator Hype Machine, catapult themselves to the top of the same charts and, as Pall puts it, “peel off a couple of Phoenix fans, peel off a couple Two Door Cinema Club fans and, in the process, garner some attention from the label and agency side of things.”

"agency side of things" my god

great post ty

ah, the infamous Pool Interview.

Miami has a lot to be sorry for, among which is the location for every dickwad and his agent looking for SEO branding opps cooked up poolside at the Mondrian.

it's really astonishing how the Chainsmokers are the worst people imaginable while the music they make manages to be even worse

there is definitely a self-reinforcing aspect to pop music in this decade that's been accelerated by "most popular" lists being the most common means of discovery for new users, and it's hammered in further by search engines being both too literal and utterly fungible.

that's a big aha moment for me right there.

relatedly does anyone else feel like weird al should do a fart-themed parody of "Thunder" by Imagine Dragons?

Honest question for those older than I: Has there been another time in pop music history where an artists' political views and personal behaviour were as important as they are now in terms of how their work will be received by critics? I feel like an impact of streaming has been that it's just *so easy* for people to have this attitude like "well, this person did or said the wrong thing - regardless of whether this is good music or not, why would I bother spending time on their art when I've got all of this other work by unproblematic people at my fingertips?". And this seems to be an attitude endorsed by a lot of publications (see: the absence of good albums Ariel Pink and Brand New etc. in most publications year end reviews).

Justin and Taylor are in interesting development in this regard, because now it's not only what artists say that is having an impact, but that what artists *don't say* is just as important. I agree that Taylor's album wasn't very good, but there was definitely a mass pile on for her remaining quiet about politics. And now a lot of criticism of Justin's record mentions how tone deaf it is to have a free spirited happy-go-lucky back-to-the-woods album considering the state of the world.

I just feel like it's been a long time since I've seen a piece of music writing that is really satisfyingly able to articulate like...which songs are good, and why, and which songs are bad, and why. I know music criticism should be more than just that, but in the last few years most stuff presenting as music criticism has really just been cultural commentary.

One of the big shifts is that the evolution of social media, pop stars' engagement with social media, and then reporting on pop stars' engagement with social media, means that people feel like they have a sense of an artist's politics and personality even if they don't have a strong engagement with the artist's work. At a practical level, even 20 years ago a piece along the lines of "Taylor hasn't said enough about Trump" would have been difficult to substantiate, and doing so would have required a detailed immersion in existing media that would have been a forbidding exercise for the non-fan. I think up until recently a situation where you would know more details about a pop star's life than their music would be unusual, whereas now it seems unsurprising.

with all due respect, whiney, what makes you think criticism has anything to contribute to an understanding of this music? i mean, surely isn't a lot of the appeal of chart music that it can be enjoyed without mediation, you don't need to read about it or think about it?

so critics should only write about the music that no one actually listens to? hmmmmm....

Honest question for those older than I: Has there been another time in pop music history where an artists' political views and personal behaviour were as important as they are now in terms of how their work will be received by critics?

When I was a kid and just started reading pop writing, around the time of the UK miners strike, there was a dogmatic line among some writers at the NME. Sometimes this was justified - eg calling out bands that played Sun City etc. But I remember a very dodgy interview with the Pet Shop Boys around the time of the first time of the first LP basically slating them for not being OUT and PROUD like Bronski Beat or whoever. Not sure this critical stridency had any impact whatsoever on the sales of the artists concerned however.

This thread feels interesting but I don't know any of the music it refers to.

there was a key editorial change at NME shortly after the end of the miners' strike (which was 84-early 85): it had been highly political since c.1973, when it became the vector of the countercultural politics of the underground press, and was later the most attuned to the political wing of punk

the editorial shift in 1985 actually broke a lot of the continuities: a lot of senior editorial went elsewhere, along with their years of experience, and the sense of a collective ethos

so from mid-1985 onwards the way politics was handled was a LOT more callow and gesturey (and the paper's sense of entitlement increasingly less deserved IMO) (lol also they were giving me more work so as night follows day…)

i forget if the piece i wrote w/terry st4unt0n abt paul simon busting the anti-apartheid cultural boycott was before or after the PSB piece (i feel it was probably the following year but i'd have to go to rock's back pages and check)

NME fully depoliticised in 1988, when the editor that management had installed in 1985 was kicked back out for being useless (i won't name him) and a "safe pair of hands" brought in: tho ever after that there was still steven wells :)

see my book due out later in the year, he added cheekily

ah, that "Youth Suicide" cover, those were the days

also nice to see the OP finally drifting round to something like my insistent ILM insights of 2002-03, viz "popism is a useless word, it's rockism all the way down dudes" (the word poptimism hadn't been coined yet)

i am on deadline (can you tell?) and hence not going to hunt for the actually relevant posts :D

The economics of streaming make this very tricky anyway because the charts just aren't especially reliable as a pop window any more - a sale used to count once regardless of how many times it was played, now the charts are skewed because of people playing that one Chainsmokers song again and again, or just listening to it by default because it's there in all the playlists. OTOH it's also an excuse for every middle aged dude to blame "algorithms" as the reason why they feel alienated from modern music, as opposed to the more old fashioned "getting old".

There's definitely a nostalgia WRT how to pop *used* to be at play here, a kind of millennial version of the old "we only like 80s Madonna" indie-pop crowd. It also helps that pop stars like CRJ and I dunno people like Robyn before her are able to pitch directly to that constituency and prolong their careers after the charts have lost interest.

Actually successful pop stars who don't fit into any of Whiney's initial three categories - Dua Lipa, Selena Gomez, Camila Cabello.

>>> the old "we only like 80s Madonna" indie-pop crowd

sounds like my crowd.

I'm sympathetic to people losing touch with music but don't see how you can blame 'algorithms'. Listen to what you want to.

I don't think algorithms can have much direct influence on what I hear, though some kind of indirect influence no doubt. Most of what I hear is a) radio and b) Bob Dylan: The Bootleg Series.

Camila Cabello has made some problematic racist comments in private Twitter DMs if I recall? I mean the chatter around her is that she's generally perceived as being a bit of a snake in her personal life.

(and none of this seems to have affected her solo career)

The CRJ thing fascinates me. E•Mo•Tion is a good album and Kiss is a slightly better album but the former seems wildly overpraised by virtue of its unambitious competency.

I suspect one person's unambitious competency might be another person's bouncy pop bliss but maybe this theory is too simplistic

I dont think the two things necessarily have to exist seperately - I do like CRJ a lot! But lets be real here: her image of playful girl-next-door and her 80s pastiche pop is expertly executed without reinventing the wheel.

A question for The Pinefox: Are you an Indie Poptimist?

Indie Poptimism
http://everynoise.com/engenremap-indiepoptimism.html

i reckon Pinefox would be unfamiliar with many of these artists.

Selena is an interesting case because her biggest hits in the last year have been pop-EDM songs she was glommed onto.

Dua Lipa also came up via YouTube! Her record is very good. Refreshing even. I haven’t listened to the Camila (X Factor spawned) but “Havana” is also a breath of fresh air on the radio, even if parts of it were created by some of the usual suspects.

I mean one of the differences between rock and pop is that rock looks backwards to retain relevancy whereas pop has to innovate - compare the overuse of "futuristic production" as a positive signifier for pop music vs "classic rock and roll" and the pride of influence in indie/rock narratives when those styles are undergoing a popularity boom. (Eg "Toxic" vs The Strokes fifteen years ago).

Its not that innovation or retroism are inherently positive/negative attributes. But i think as a listener i would find it limiting if pop was to live in thrall to a golden era of nostalgia.

xp

The rise of fan armies also fuels the “this person is problematic” fire - lots of people devote their free time looking for “receipts.” And also... how many *music* writers are we talking about here? How many of the sloppy yet conversation-informing pieces being referenced are actually by writers for say Bustle (which gets way more traffic than any music outlet), and who don’t have time to engage with the music because they’re on a Content Production Pace, so they reach for the low hanging fruit that also allows them to shut off the possibility of engagement?

Probably worth noting too that multiple people (men) in editorial management have told me that discussing music and how sounds work / gear works / etc is too “academic” for a general audience

but it's always a dialogue. probably the case with "rock" music too, in the loosest sense. and a kind of fake dialogue at that because innovation and revival can't be separated too neatly.

rockism at its heart refers to that privileging of false binaries, one way or another.

xp

Speaking of false binaries and distinctions, what about Nicki Minaj (and to a lesser but notable extent, Rihanna) who release singles chasing different audiences deliberately? "Pop" is a broad church and i always thought it was strange that someone with the level of talent and charisma as Minaj has had to lend her vocals to as many sub-par Guetta singles as she has rapped brilliant verses.

lol excellent work.

loving this new mountain goats

UMS, how did you encounter this 4-year old youtube with 38 views?

Didn’t we talk about his guy recently in some thread?

I saw it on Facebook via a former ilxor

btw this guy's body of work in insane

so this is what kozelek is up to these days

Listen to @alyandaj's cover of @TheNational's "I Need My Girl" https://t.co/hfv5RvyYNQ pic.twitter.com/kCm6qp8e1C

— Stereogum (@stereogum) July 31, 2021

I was really hoping this would be the Pitchfork Peppa Pig review