the alt-right

oh yeah I think that's worthwhile work on its own, just not trying to weaponize it against JP

re JP weaponization the current efforts of demonstrating how he doesn't understand the thinkers that oppose or buttress his claims seems sufficient.

Had to think really hard who FN was, thought it was a FaNcy way of writing FaurrisoN. But FaurrisoN liked nazis, not the other way around. Get it now, but what is GM?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodnight_Moon

Oh, right. Mordy, if it's tough to get through, they did readings from it on The Wire, fyi.

Genealogy of Morals, I assume

how do you fight the chaos sex dragon man

How's Milo Yiannopoulos's attempt to represent himself in a lawsuit going? Oh... pic.twitter.com/00ZdYwWl1Q

— Will Sommer (@willsommer) February 7, 2018

Oh, right. Mordy, if it's tough to get through, they did readings from it on The Wire, fyi.

― Frederik B

i haven't been able to successfully watch the wire myself

being able to frame toxic ideas in a manner which is superficially appealing and seems to "make sense" is certainly extremely dangerous, as we've seen and continue to see. though it's important to objectively point out the flaws in reasoning and false premises of such people, to nakedly expose the toxic assumptions of the discourse, i don't think this is sufficient to counter such arguments. most people who support peterson aren't thinking logically, they're borrowing the appearance of sophistication to support their prejudices (no wonder david brooks loves him). of course it doesn't matter that peterson hasn't read derrida. the best way of undermining peterson's arguments is to undermine peterson himself. i recommend ad hominem attacks.

flippant thought: consistently refer to it as "it" rather that "he"/"him", with the reasoning that you see no obligation to refer to it by its preferred pronoun :-p

Do you want to see Jordan Peterson's penis.

Is that what you want.

awp
retracted

itshappening.gif

Running for Congress this year.....It's looking like a real possibility.

— Mike Cernovich 🇺🇸 (@Cernovich) February 8, 2018

The Baffler takedown of Peterson is dope too.

The strange paradox we face today is that the Enlightenment is being invoked like a talismanic object to thwart the very questioning of political hierarchies and norms that, for Enlightenment thinkers, was necessary for humanity’s emergence from tradition and subordination. But even if the forces of Counter-Enlightenment may have now adapted the language of rationality to their own purposes, authentic Enlightenment thought has never been about building up the bulwark of tradition. As that other British liberal John Stuart Mill wrote, “The despotism of custom is everywhere the standing hindrance to human advancement.” The great figures of the Enlightenment knew that the social and political revolutions of their day were aligned with their thought; there’s a reason that mild-mannered Kant toasted the anniversary of storming of the Bastille every year, earning him the not-so-friendly nickname of the “Old Jacobin.” For all their Millian, free-speech high-mindedness, intellectuals like Peterson, and writers for outlets like Quillette, which has ridden the back of figures like Peterson to style itself a great defender of Enlightenment values against the totalitarian left, are remarkably pessimistic about our human ability to alter our customs through rational critique.

This is my stuff

In the twentieth century, Theodor Adorno and Max Horkheimer—“postmodern neo-Marxists,” as Peterson would call them—thought that modern technology and scientific reason had outstripped humanity’s moral and political enlightenment. The powerful abstractions that allowed for scientific calculation and measurement levelled and liquidated when applied to humanity. They were appalled by the barbarity carried out in the name of progress and saw ancient myths replicated in the cult of reason. Yet for them, the recognition of Enlightenment’s failure led to a doubling-down on the project, an attempt to make rational criticism more aware of its own deficiencies.

What Frederik was talking about before — critical theory, beit adorno or derrida or foucault needs to be understood in its historical context. One advantage, i think, of engaging with reactionaries —hopefully smarter ones than peterson, but he seems to have a lot of influence — is that it’s an opportunity to defend and even renew the emancipatory enlightenment tradition, which as adorno saw needs to be understood dialectically because it’s not just a static set of values and if it becomes that can be easily appropriated. Seeing Peterson as an avatar of “irrationalism” isn’t metaphysical — that’s why reaction is, a longing for stability and tradition against the frightening uncertainty of freedom 😎

Like the issue isn’t that Peterson has “ideas” that are “worth engaging”; the principle is that the forces of reaction should be confronted when they pop up and amass millions of followers

lmao

Do you think your ex-wife can afford to finance an entire unsuccessful political campaign?

— Dan, a very stable genius (@everybodyshirts) February 8, 2018

please run, Mike

I agree with treeship. Too many examples of idiots & hucksters not being taken seriously or critiqued in any real way in the past. @ Simon - I agree that many on the far right are immovable, but what I think and what I think treeship believe is that Peterson is very much a gateway to that world or something close to it. I mean, the "PROFESSOR" chyron on Fox is a perfect example.

relevant to our interests I think

https://medium.com/@shujaxhaider/what-makes-life-shitty-e739902b2529

there will be no angry and lost young ppl in socialist utopia

no one actually believes or argues that but thx anyway

he's says capitalism is why ppl have shitty lives

which is correct, and also not the same thing as saying no one's life would be shitty under a different economic arrangement

anyway whether or not you agree with that aspect, haider's broader point in that it's not enough to belittle peterson fans etc, you have to lay out a vision at some point. if you think you can address those concerns win a capitalist framework, go for it.

I sometimes wish all those writers of 'you have to lay out a vision' pieces would spend some more time working on that vision of theirs.

fred that was me trying to make sure this doesn't become another socialism thread lol

I'm a socialist, feminist white young man (sorta, might not be that young anymore), and I've never felt attacked in the identity groups that I've been a part of. The thing about that piece is that it takes a self-evidently good point - it would be great if young men joined the DSA instead of the alt-right - and somehow puts the responsibility of that happening not on the DSA wing, but on the 'liberals' and in some ways on feminist and anti-racist groups. Who have better thing to do.

I think almost literally any leftist has *better* / more productive things to do tbh

I’m not saying our primary task should be converting alt-righters. I don’t think we should do that at all. I’m not saying white men are the most important people to recruit. Quite the opposite; I want a more diverse left. I think we should dedicate all our strategic resources to making that happen.

I simply believe that these precepts are not incompatible with acknowledging that capitalism harms everyone whose labor is exploited for profit. I believe that we have an explanation for why white men sometimes have shitty lives too. And it’s completely compatible with the multifarious explanations for the oppression of others. I’m not calling for us to compromise one bit. I myself am a person of color who wants and needs white supremacy to be defeated. I think if we express our real beliefs, we’ll win people over, and we have a chance of taking power.But if we operate on an ethic of neoliberal bootstrapping, that those born with the privilege of being white men have only themselves to blame if capitalism exploits them, we’ve not only consigned ourselves to defeat, we’ve betrayed our most crucial values. And we’re letting down the marginalized people who deserve to have all of us, including white men, fighting for them, and for us, together.

I don't see how Haider is arguing what you say he's arguing at all

I simply believe that these precepts are not incompatible with acknowledging that capitalism harms everyone whose labor is exploited for profit. I believe that we have an explanation for why white men sometimes have shitty lives too. And it’s completely compatible with the multifarious explanations for the oppression of others. I’m not calling for us to compromise one bit. I myself am a person of color who wants and needs white supremacy to be defeated. I think if we express our real beliefs, we’ll win people over, and we have a chance of taking power.
But if we operate on an ethic of neoliberal bootstrapping, that those born with the privilege of being white men have only themselves to blame if capitalism exploits them, we’ve not only consigned ourselves to defeat, we’ve betrayed our most crucial values. And we’re letting down the marginalized people who deserve to have all of us, including white men, fighting for them, and for us, together.

I (predictably) think this is extremely otm. The point of the left for me is reducing exploitation and inequality and creating a society that allows for the flourishing of human freedom, not just for some but for all. I don’t think that — given current messaging, especially the decentralized hell pit of twitter — everyone knows this is what the left stands for.

Lol sorry for repeating the same quote.

We live in a really fucked up time though and it’s hard to know how to best fight the rising tide of hate groups. Having MRA’s and Daily Stormer types operate on Reddit and Twitter is practically the same as allowing them to set up recruitment tables in local high schools, which no one would ever allow. Someone needs to feel like it’s important to win the hearts and minds of young white men before they fall into that resentment trap, which is really a bottomless hole. I guess this might be the role of educators or community leaders? I have no idea, but I’m not cool with the continued expansion of this trend of racists, homophobes and misogynists being able to position themselves as “anti-pc” truth tellers. It’s very dangerous.

I would actually love to see DSA (or more specifically YDSA) establish a counter-alt-right task force or caucus or something.

I don’t care if they become socialists or even liberals but there needs to be less of them going down the alt right path.

I would like that Simon. I’d even volunteer.

I think Antifa groups are doing that? They definitely are in Europe. I've studied a bit with them.

do they actually have positions to communicate beyond "fascism is bad"? (which I agree with, incidentally)

But it's the framing of that article. There's another possible way to say pretty much the same thing, which is that the socialist vision needs to be deeply, completely intersectional, to both entice identity politics into a socialist framework and white men into intersectional work. But instead it's filled with bad strawmen mixing 'liberals' with identity groups.

x-post: Most of them are among the most committed socialists I know. But it's organizational work, educating, observing, connecting dots as to which groups are receiving funding from where, and which writers are presenting themselves as moderates in one place, and extremists in others.

Someone needs to feel like it’s important to win the hearts and minds of young white men before they fall into that resentment trap, which is really a bottomless hole.

― treeship 2, Monday, February 12, 2018 5:04 AM (one hour ago)

young white men with either hearts or minds aren't going to go alt-right

discarding potential future alt-righters (aka disenfranchised young white men, a growing demographic) as irredeemable inhuman scum is not going to help defeat the alt right. lots of young people manage to grow into and out of dumb beliefs all the time. (you can cue up one of my bad takes now)

like sorry but as long as people are growing up knowing they're going to grow up significantly worse off than their parents' generation there is going to be a reactionary layer. we can choose to at least try to redirect that or we can ignore/dismiss it but only one approach is definitely doomed

Not being concerned about young, miserable men being drawn to the reactionary propaganda designed to appeal to their damged egos, which is coming through their social media feeds with the speed and intensity of a fire hose, is “completely insane.”

The alt-right is self-defeating; I’m not remotely worried about “defeating” them.

As far as alt-right conversion therapy goes, it reeks of more high road nonsense than I personally have time for; I’d much rather progressives, liberals and affiliates spend our precious calories on GOTV and enfranchisement work than worrying about the souls of disaffected white boys stranded in a shitty social network of their own making.

Something needs to be done about alt-righters, but it's not as if there wasn't a reactionary layer back when young generations routinely had better lifes than there parents...

Having MRA’s and Daily Stormer types operate on Reddit and Twitter is practically the same as allowing them to set up recruitment tables in local high schools, which no one would ever allow.

1. No it isn’t
2. Yes they would

I’d much rather progressives, liberals and affiliates spend our precious calories on GOTV and enfranchisement work

I agree with this. I suspect a significant number of "alt-right" saddos will magically turn liberal once that's perceived to be the "winning team."

Tombot where are these daily stormer school booths at

fwiw, it's also true that there are voices speaking back to the alt-right within the spheres where these disaffected white boys are getting indoctrinated. gamergate was terrifying but the reaction against it probably made a lot of gamers cognizant of and willing to speak about a version of gaming culture that embodies other values and rejects both the rabid white-nationalist/aggrieved-male culture and the "anti-PC" leading edge that first draws in the 13-year-old misfit who wants to seem cool and badass online. obv that's a long way from articulating a gamer socialism that would fully answer to all the structural realities that lie behind misfitism but maybe that work is beginning, idk.

Again, go for that vision-thing, if you believe it is a clear and simple way to defeat resentment. But there's sometimes a layer of 'white innocence' about it all, where the poor white men can't help becoming racists due to the economic fallout from policies that were as a matter of fact mostly put in place by other racist white men. I don't think that strategy is more useful than what Antifa is doing, but that's my opinion.