the alt-right

I would like that Simon. I’d even volunteer.

I think Antifa groups are doing that? They definitely are in Europe. I've studied a bit with them.

do they actually have positions to communicate beyond "fascism is bad"? (which I agree with, incidentally)

But it's the framing of that article. There's another possible way to say pretty much the same thing, which is that the socialist vision needs to be deeply, completely intersectional, to both entice identity politics into a socialist framework and white men into intersectional work. But instead it's filled with bad strawmen mixing 'liberals' with identity groups.

x-post: Most of them are among the most committed socialists I know. But it's organizational work, educating, observing, connecting dots as to which groups are receiving funding from where, and which writers are presenting themselves as moderates in one place, and extremists in others.

Someone needs to feel like it’s important to win the hearts and minds of young white men before they fall into that resentment trap, which is really a bottomless hole.

― treeship 2, Monday, February 12, 2018 5:04 AM (one hour ago)

young white men with either hearts or minds aren't going to go alt-right

discarding potential future alt-righters (aka disenfranchised young white men, a growing demographic) as irredeemable inhuman scum is not going to help defeat the alt right. lots of young people manage to grow into and out of dumb beliefs all the time. (you can cue up one of my bad takes now)

like sorry but as long as people are growing up knowing they're going to grow up significantly worse off than their parents' generation there is going to be a reactionary layer. we can choose to at least try to redirect that or we can ignore/dismiss it but only one approach is definitely doomed

Not being concerned about young, miserable men being drawn to the reactionary propaganda designed to appeal to their damged egos, which is coming through their social media feeds with the speed and intensity of a fire hose, is “completely insane.”

The alt-right is self-defeating; I’m not remotely worried about “defeating” them.

As far as alt-right conversion therapy goes, it reeks of more high road nonsense than I personally have time for; I’d much rather progressives, liberals and affiliates spend our precious calories on GOTV and enfranchisement work than worrying about the souls of disaffected white boys stranded in a shitty social network of their own making.

Something needs to be done about alt-righters, but it's not as if there wasn't a reactionary layer back when young generations routinely had better lifes than there parents...

Having MRA’s and Daily Stormer types operate on Reddit and Twitter is practically the same as allowing them to set up recruitment tables in local high schools, which no one would ever allow.

1. No it isn’t
2. Yes they would

I’d much rather progressives, liberals and affiliates spend our precious calories on GOTV and enfranchisement work

I agree with this. I suspect a significant number of "alt-right" saddos will magically turn liberal once that's perceived to be the "winning team."

Tombot where are these daily stormer school booths at

fwiw, it's also true that there are voices speaking back to the alt-right within the spheres where these disaffected white boys are getting indoctrinated. gamergate was terrifying but the reaction against it probably made a lot of gamers cognizant of and willing to speak about a version of gaming culture that embodies other values and rejects both the rabid white-nationalist/aggrieved-male culture and the "anti-PC" leading edge that first draws in the 13-year-old misfit who wants to seem cool and badass online. obv that's a long way from articulating a gamer socialism that would fully answer to all the structural realities that lie behind misfitism but maybe that work is beginning, idk.

Again, go for that vision-thing, if you believe it is a clear and simple way to defeat resentment. But there's sometimes a layer of 'white innocence' about it all, where the poor white men can't help becoming racists due to the economic fallout from policies that were as a matter of fact mostly put in place by other racist white men. I don't think that strategy is more useful than what Antifa is doing, but that's my opinion.

you forgot "rich"

I say there's no harm in pursuing both approaches

but there is definitely harm in thinking this problem goes away on its own

I don't think anyone here is doing that. And the rich white men got the votes of the poor white men to do their bullshit. So there's kinda no need to add that qualifier.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=recruiting+teenagers+white+nationalism

I don't think anyone here is doing that.

I pretty much am.

lol I was gonna say

lol, fair point. But even rushomancy seems to me to advocate more for a confrontational approach.

For example, most bullies stop being bullies past a certain age when it stops being “fun” and they realize it means they’ll be shunned by peers if they don’t tamp it down. The ones who continue to bully others into middle age and beyond are incorrigible sociopaths.

And as for the ones with hearts and minds, to allude to rushomancy’s post above, they sort themselves out more often than not.

Any approach to “doing something” about these people should be the same as doing something about any other population of angry, violent, depressed people. More behavioral health professionals, more social workers, etc.

There’s no need, and no excuse, for perpetuating the privilege of white guys by extending a special olive branch to alt-right dumbasses and their potential converts.

guess who ends up suffering if that effort isn't made

Tombot otm tbh

I also keep thinking we should just start terrorisming them

cool answer

I’m also angry and white

I keep hoping one of these socialist organizers I hear about will organize me into a militia but nobody has come a knockin

Have you tried Antifa?

I'd like to hear more about what yr antifa ppl do Fred, ime most antifa ppl I encounter are anarchists not socialists

i think there's a way that the majority of alt-righters could end up "outgrowing" it while the movement as a whole still grows in power. even if the the majority of them end up dropping out of it fairly soon, if the rate of new arrivals outpaces the rate of exits, the group continues to get larger.

I can’t be an anarchist bc I love rules so much

I'd like to hear more about what yr antifa ppl do Fred, ime most antifa ppl I encounter are anarchists not socialists

― Simon H., 12. februar 2018 17:42 (fourteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The ones I know are from the Redox program, they do research into far righters who try to stay anonymous, figure out who is organizing, who is a member of which group and which other groups they are collaborating with. I've met them since I've written about MRAs and alt-righters in the Danish film industry. They pretty routinely support the Unity List, the far-left party that got 18% of the vote in the municipal election in Copenhagen last fall. The existence of that coalition means a lot of far-left distinctions doesn't mean as much as I guess it does in other countries.

I think we're slowly seeing that elsewhere too, I mean DSA is openly trying to be "multi tendency"

alt-righters could end up "outgrowing" it while the movement as a whole still grows in power.

yep. they'll stop posting wacky little frog cartoons on the internet and start running for office. and yes, a lot of these guys are disaffected and have no economic agency. but LOTS of them are just middle and upper middle class fratty bros who just like to troll. they'll "grow up" and get with jobs in finance or GOP politics.

That makes them no different than their forebears

I mean if the problem here is that alt-right boys grow up to be garden variety Republican men, uh

https://www.splcenter.org/20180205/alt-right-killing-people

Kill ‘em back

I mean, not really, maybe, but goddamn

100 victims over 4 years is less worrisome than stinging insects

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/16/chart-the-animals-that-are-most-likely-to-kill-you-this-summer/

idk if I would describe them as "fratty bros" -- part of their whole thing (the "alt" part) is defining themselves in part as opposition to fratty bros, "chads" if you will

I mean if the problem here is that alt-right boys grow up to be garden variety Republican men, uh

Like all those Young Tories in the 80s and 90s with their Hang Mandela badges and t-shirts who turned into Old Tories who'd rather not talk about when they were Young Tories.

Whites still have quite a ways to catch up, 7000+ dead by Islamic terrorists in the same time period (if this is how we're choosing to look at things) (obviously I find silbys post reprehensible)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

in an American context, the majority of mass shootings are done by white folks and right-wing nationalist goons.

Yeah I wouldn't really go down that road SB. But I'll see your Wikipedia (sigh) link and raise you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States

Mass shootings are just one of the dangers of far right ideology. For every one mass shooter there are probably 10,000 me who share that kind of extremely antisocial, grievance driven way of looking at the world. And now the alt right is giving these tendencies in American life — this disease — a more political shape, and the shape is an ideology of white supremacy and male supremacy. It’s poisonous to the whole society. Of course it’s *their* moral failure for turning to hate but the costs of are borne by all of us, especially the most vulnerable groups.

*10,000 men

I don’t have the answers to this but I find it really troubling.