"I honestly think he may have a brain tumor. He’s always been insufferable." - D'arcy Wretzsky's first interview in 20 years

But did they become fans by listening to anything they’ve released since 2000?

Didn’t really explain myself before saying that, of course people still care to see them live, they still care about the band and Mellon Collie and Siamese Dream are probably considered classic rock standards and at this point and will continue to sell and be streamed by newer generations. It’s their new music that hasn’t really caught on and the one people don’t care about. Corgan knows this and that’s why he’s trying to bring the gang together. He’s doing it the wrong way though, inviting James Iha and D’arcy to play live is one thing but he should have done the upcoming record with them if he truly wants fans to relive the experience... doesn’t matter if the result is subpar. As to why he invites them to play live but not on record I’ve no idea. Greed? I agree with D’arcy being angry about that particular aspect.

Adore is now considered on par with the first three for one. James wasn’t able to participate in these sessions bc he was busy with APC. I think there’s a lot we don’t know about D’arcy’s situation that the band knows and are kindly and wisely not revealing. The kids want to see the band play their classic material. Billy has already tried to push the new stuff. I actually think this could work bc if the shows go well a lot of people will leave with a much higher opinion of the band as they are now, and will be more inclined to listen to anything new when it comes out. Like Soundgarden or something

I know of at least one person who got into the band with Oceania and hadn't heard of a note of their music before - so yes, it happens.

yea Oceania was definitely the best/ most successful SP2 record

As to why he invites them to play live but not on record I’ve no idea. Greed? I agree with D’arcy being angry about that particular aspect.

I've never been a fan, but I always thought the whole deal was that in the studio it was pretty much Corgan doing everything but the drums?

Yep for the most part

I've heard all of their 90s albums and Machina but not Siamese Dream. I think I know I'm guilty of 'doing Smashing Pumpkins wrong'

"But did they become fans by listening to anything they’ve released since 2000?"

no but that's the point of reunions and revival tours which this is.

" I always thought the whole deal was that in the studio it was pretty much Corgan doing everything but the drums?"

she seems to take issue with that in the interview.

've never been a fan, but I always thought the whole deal was that in the studio it was pretty much Corgan doing everything but the drums?

― grawlix (unperson)

Well yeah there’s this too, iirc James did record some things but almost every bassline on the albums was actually Billy. D’arcy complaining about not being invited to play on the album is nonsense.

Her word against half a dozen others: not only Billy, but Jimmy, James, Butch Vig, Flood, Alan Moulder, Brad Wood, Eric Remschneider. She makes tons of factual errors, like thinking they did MCIS in Atlanta. It’s also pretty easy to distinguish Billy and D’arcy’s bass playing: Billy is more aggressive and bright (Today & I of the Mourning), D’arcy is much more atmospheric and softer (Luna, Porcelina, Shame).

no one has OD'ed and died yet

Jeez, not for lack of trying!

Billy confirmed she played bass on Luna as a compromise bc she was so upset about being left out making SD. Listen to that song vs. something like Hummer or Today and it becomes obvious.

Well she’s either a terrible bass player that can’t even play root notes and/or Corgan is a control freak. Probably a mixture of both. Then why keep her around at all for so many years? To have a token rock chick in your band?

I’d say reach out to Melissa Auf Der Mar (supposing she doesn’t hate Billy too) I’d be more interested in seeing her live than D’Arcy at this point.

That said I symphatize with D’Arcy must be a self-esteem struggle to identify yourself as the bass player from a famous band while knowing you’ve no real input and considered to terrible to play root notes and you’re really just there to make the band look cool.

pumpkins are one of the few huge bands of the grunge era where no one has OD'ed and died yet.

except that one guy who OD'ed and died, during the grunge era

pretty sure one member (not Billy) OD'ed and survived. forgot who.

xp:

Yes, that guy who was not one of the four official members of The Smashing Pumpkins.

Lots of millenials love the Pumpkins in a way that is not happening for Pearl Jam for some reason.

and yes a female bassist was such a prop in the post-Nirvana success major label signings.

She's definitely up there with Lars Ulrich's dad in terms documentary potential

For band that has like 2.5 good songs there sure have an awful lot of drama.

2.5 being the aggregated total of goodness in all their songs combined

2.5 discography goodness in their 1 discography

or less charitably if you split sp1 and sp2

i mean, i gotta give points to the "despite all my rage, i am still just a rat in a cage" song, because the vocals really are rodent-like, and I did enjoy that

pretty sure one member (not Billy) OD'ed and survived. forgot who.

― Van Horn Street, Saturday, February 17, 2018 7:39 PM (sixteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yep, as Josh said upthread it wasn't for lack of trying. Chamberlin was a mess for years.

To my ear Smashing Pumpkins have like 2.5 good riffs and no actual good songs, because songs involve singing, and Corgan's voice is one of the worst sounds in the history of pop and rock music.

part of me wants to start a semantic argument based in musical history and theory on the definition of "song" -- but I think I'll just vehemently agree with you about how awful Corgi's voice is

Lots of millenials love the Pumpkins in a way that is not happening for Pearl Jam for some reason.

― Van Horn Street, Saturday, February 17, 2018 7:42 PM (fourteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's because the dreampop/goth/New Wave/synthpop elements of their sound chime better with that particular audience that Pearl Jam's hairy old school rockisms.

it's interesting how of the 2 of the most famous 'alternative' nineties bands both have male singers that require an... err.. acquired taste to say the least.

had to think for a second if you meant nirvana or radiohead

So which one was it?

Well she’s either a terrible bass player that can’t even play root notes and/or Corgan is a control freak. Probably a mixture of both. Then why keep her around at all for so many years? To have a token rock chick in your band?

it's not that simple. first of all, she wasn't a terrible bass player. listen to any pre-1999 show and the whole "D'arcy sucks" myth disappears. And the idea that SP bass lines are the way they are because D'arcy couldn't handle anything complicated is silly- like someone said in the other thread, that's just how the band and Billy wrote their songs. they are a guitar driven band, Jimmy plays to Billy's guitar, not D'arcy's bass. that's an aesthetic decision, not a practical necessity.

However, her playing severely declined in 1999. Two example: here's "I Am One" in 1993, shortly after the release of Siamese Dream.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2fJzcNd7Rw

and here's a soundboard recording of a show from April 1999 that opens with "I Am One." her playing, not only in the song but throughout the show, is awful. this is right before she left or was fired.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEkw7jJR2Wg

I’d say reach out to Melissa Auf Der Mar (supposing she doesn’t hate Billy too) I’d be more interested in seeing her live than D’Arcy at this point.

MADM is great but I never understood why she was considered any more of a legitimate member than any of the other hired guns the band got in 2007 or on the Adore tour.

That said I symphatize with D’Arcy must be a self-esteem struggle to identify yourself as the bass player from a famous band while knowing you’ve no real input and considered to terrible to play root notes and you’re really just there to make the band look cool.

again, the idea that she had "no real input" is simply false and D'arcy & Billy have both said as much. she even says it in this new interview, that she was there to reign Billy in not only when he was being an insane asshole but also creatively. he's written about how much he trusted her opinion while writing & recording & deciding what songs go on the record. there's a mutual respect there that isn't brought up enough.

She's considered more of a member at least because people know her name.

To that end, I totally forgot a friend of mine from college was in the last real incarnation of this group. I I had no idea until I saw the two final Chicago shows and thought, hey, wait a minute ...

She's considered more of a member at least because people know her name.

as opposed to Mike Garson, Kenny Aronoff, and Matt Walker? I mean I know why, it's because she joined SP on their farewell tour right after she finished promoting Celebrity Skin with Hole. She participated in photoshoots, interviews, etc. But considering they haven't worked together since that last Metro show in December 2000, I imagine there isn't any love lost between Billy & MADM. He's since said that her playing style didn't really fit the band and they struggled with it. MADM is a very aggressive player, very top heavy, and it doesn't suit the dreaminess of SP's music for the most part. for Machina era, sure, but in general it's not a good fit.

...and are you talking about Ms. Strawberry?

also consider this, very early Pumpkins, when they were still more or less a Cure tribute band. her playing is good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rr7th61VOk

She's definitely up there with Lars Ulrich's dad in terms documentary potential

Yes, but in the sense that she'd similarly tell Billy when his songs are shit. BC (not one to give praise easily, especially to James to D'arcy) maintained that D'arcy has great musical taste and he always trusted her opinions and input, from the beginning.

Let's put it this way, MADM had fans in the way Bowie's piano player and Mellencamp's drummer didn't.

Lars's Dad was also v. memorable as featured in the book Powers of Mind, by "Adam Smith," the novelist-jorunalist--host of Publc TV's "Adam Smith's Money Week"---Wall Street figure. He realized losing track of his being in the world when he found his supposedly fine self described as "a hulking blue-jawed figure" in Newsweek and noticed a colleague smoking three cigs at once (had them waiting all over the conference room). So he took off into the Golden Age of Pop Psychology-the 1970s---and one of the Remarkable Men he encountered was Lars's (future?) Dad, a Danish tennis guru who later moved to Cali. Yes he does need more exposure, but read that book if at all interested!
Jonathan Melvoin was the tour musician who died, and before I get into backstory will say the main band-historical relevance, as I recall, was that Corgan was so pissed---correct maybe to blame and fire Chamberlin for his part in it--but also in every comment (that I recall, but sickening enough that it seems hard to forget), it was all about him, and at the Grammys or Rock & Roll Hall of Fame or something soon after the death, first thing out of his pouty mouth, "It wasn't our fault."
So Jonathan was the brother of Wendy (of Wwndy and Lisa) and Samantha, W.'s twin and maybe in the Revolution as well? Samantha was the one Prince was supposedly engaged to, I think. Their father Michael played piano for Judy Collins from waaay back (was with Stephen Stills and Ry Cooder in her late-60s touring band) and he made an LP called The Purple Cow Goes Moooog
Somebody on here said Siamese Dream was the one they hadn't heard; that's the only one that got me, via Corgan's very relatable desperate asshole persona on the big single. Actually bought the tape.

Jonathan Melvoin was the tour musician who died, and before I get into backstory will say the main band-historical relevance, as I recall, was that Corgan was so pissed---correct maybe to blame and fire Chamberlin for his part in it--but also in every comment (that I recall, but sickening enough that it seems hard to forget), it was all about him, and at the Grammys or Rock & Roll Hall of Fame or something soon after the death, first thing out of his pouty mouth, "It wasn't our fault."

Melvoin and Chamberlin overdosed twice before the fatal one in NYC in July 1996: Thailand in February, and then Portugal in May. His anger & frustration is pretty understandable imo. This might be the interview you're thinking of, it's not nearly as self-serving as you describe. Grammy's & RNR Hall of Fame both happen early in the year, and if he said anything at those, it would've been months if not nearly a year since the OD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjO0Xou_RPg

quibble, Susannah Melvoin, not Samantha

"Lots of millenials love the Pumpkins in a way that is not happening for Pearl Jam for some reason."

that's because pearl jam have never gone away and have been dad rock for at least 15 years if not longer.

Also grunge inherited lots of frat type dudes that were coming from hard rock/hair metal and that sort of attitudes are seen as risible by milennials. Pearl Jam’s music of course is not to blame, that stigma comes more from the perceived audience of it.

SP made songs that were either too sensible for that audience or too vicious. Safe from a couple of examples their more rocking songs don’t have that stadium feel.

buuut actually you'd be surprised how many *spit* "millenials" do like pearl jam - Nirvana is basically still a massive thing for anyone getting into rock as a teen, and the obvious followup to listening to them is searching out the other big grunge era mainstays. last one of their shows i went to had a pretty diverse age range present.

(also, pearl jam don't need millenials...)

PJ & SP are both spun on the radio constantly but you guys are so wise and correct. They both have 2.5 good songs each and no one has listened to either of them in 25 years. So much wisdom and truth.

Pearl jam don't have 2.5 good songs

yes they do m8

Pearl Jam still consistently does arena tours iirc

They're still alive iirc

For band that has like 2.5 good songs there sure have an awful lot of drama.

2.5 being the aggregated total of goodness in all their songs combined

― sarahell, Saturday, 17 February 2018 19:47 (two days ago) Permalink

Oh yeah for real they certainly don't have a single song that's good from front to back.

Further break down:
4 neat ideas, two good riffs, a solid chorus, drums are "cool" a few times=2.5 songs.

I saw them in 1991 just pre-fame opening for Red Hot Chili Peppers and Corgan was hugely insufferable at the show so they could like...cure cancer and I'd still be like "2.5 good songs"

where did you see them in 1991? just curious, there might be a recording of that show and i'd be interested in hearing... the gish shows were pretty wild

They have at least 50 great songs.

people who think they're just the worst band are so weird to me, it's like y'all don't even have ears

xxpost

Roy Wilkins Auditorium in St Paul, MN which is notoriously an impossibly bad sounding concrete box/ex-hockey venue.

Someone threw an ice cube at Billy at one point and he stopped the show to yell at the crowd and threaten to walk off "You want to throw something? Throw it at my face" so obviously the instant he turned around a rain of ice pelted the stage. No walk off but they were like super-turgid, doing these jams on every song which I don't think was winning everyone over.

Pearl Jam also played.

I don't think they are the worst band. The worst band would be far more interesting.

Number of Good Songs Had By the Smashing Pumkings

time to resolve this dispute with science

lol @ those poll options

They have the 70 songs from 2-71 on the list of the greatest songs ever

xxpost

Roy Wilkins Auditorium in St Paul, MN which is notoriously an impossibly bad sounding concrete box/ex-hockey venue.

Someone threw an ice cube at Billy at one point and he stopped the show to yell at the crowd and threaten to walk off "You want to throw something? Throw it at my face" so obviously the instant he turned around a rain of ice pelted the stage. No walk off but they were like super-turgid, doing these jams on every song which I don't think was winning everyone over.

Pearl Jam also played.

I don't think they are the worst band. The worst band would be far more interesting.

― chr1sb3singer

dang, no extant recording or known setlist. it was November 30, 1991 fwiw

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

I saw them in ’91, Detroit show, opening (w/Pearl Jam) for RHCP. Pumpkins were great. The other two, not so much. PJ were goofy (I thought “These guys are going nowhere”) and RHCP were in “bored professionals” mode.