Another fucking spree shooting. Great.

the mentally ill are far far faaaar more likely to hurt themselves than others. also - every country has mentally ill people. every country has violent video games. every country has angry men. every country has depressed disaffected young people. every country does not have access to guns. i don't think i even saw a gun in real life until i went to america.

"Well actually, a gun merely being discharged in a school is not a 'shooting'." Thanks for clarifying that.

Also also, what's even the standard for what constitutes 'mental illness' in this context? We've gotta be down to a single-digit percentage of US citizens at this point who don't at least suffer from depression or anxiety.

suffice it to say that the people who decide to indiscriminately kill multiple human beings are not, generally, those who are fully capable of making rational decisions. I would hope that this is common sense.

meanwhile the president is considering a nuclear strike on north korea iirc

indeed. there's such a vast stigma against any sort of mental illness that it allows pro-gun people to put 'Mentally ill' people in a nice convenient box completely disconnected from *cough* "normal automatic weapon owners"

Rep. Claudia Tenney (R-NY) says most mass shooters are Democrats

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/21/politics/claudia-tenney-mass-shooter-democrats/index.html

yeah that's the fucked up thing. where do you draw the line? wouldn't loesch's batshit monologues in those nra psas count as an indication of her being "mentally ill"? paranoia, violence...

No one who's passionate about their right to own and actively wield murder machines could possibly be unstable, come on.

Can we all just agree to start calling them 'murder machines' btw? Or similar? Let's stop pussyfooting.

indeed. there's such a vast stigma against any sort of mental illness that it allows pro-gun people to put 'Mentally ill' people in a nice convenient box completely disconnected from *cough* "normal automatic weapon owners"

this. exactly. almost any attempt to make this about anything other than the widespread accessibility of guns *first and foremost*, at the end of the day, serves the NRA's interests. as if they give a fuckin hoot about helping the mentally ill (or victims of toxic masculinity or...)

*cough* "normal automatic weapon owners"

normal SEMI-automatic weapon owners. A distinction without a difference, but I like to cede this point to the NRA because it makes them look even more batshit.

What's insane to me is that owning a semi-automatic assault rifle and several high capacity magazines is apparently not a red flag in and of itself.

Let's not call them shootings, let's call them post-natal abortions.

I know this is the absolute minimum but I kind of give props for Rubio for doing that last night, knowing that he was likely to get slaughtered like that, since most Republicans are just avoiding their constituents at all costs these days

he's so weak he couldn't extricate himself from the immediate political situation is all

Dana Loesch at @CPAC: "Many in legacy media love mass shootings," says NRA spox, saying "crying white mothers are ratings gold"

— ErikWemple (@ErikWemple) February 22, 2018

i suspect that's probably true in some sense but the 'legacy media' aren't the ones out there spending millions in lobbying to keep mass shootings happening

i really like the "personal responsibility" angle mentioned upthread because it's a language that the nutty libertarian contingent understands

i.e. who is capable of taking personal responsibility for an assault weapon or a handgun? how do we make that decision? what are some models for dangerous equipment?

i.e. it shouldn't be on schools, or on foster families, it should be on the individual. how can we ensure that individual is capable of taking responsibility?

by arming every other individual so that potential bad actors are persuaded to stay in line, obv

https://i.imgur.com/Hzsdx0C.jpg

In my opinion the main reason these shootings occur is the media coverage and instant fame they bring (Dear hero imprisoned...)

Is it too much to hope that, at some point, someone will shoot Wayne LaPierre in the face?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/22/nra-wayne-lapierre-gun-control-cpac-speech-2018

How are we supposed to neutralize the terrifying threat of a seven-year-old nibbling his Pop-Tart into the shape of a gun if we don't grant that child's teacher the ability to neutralize said threat with extreme prejudice. How.

oh HELL yeah

As a sign of the national slide to socialism, NRA CEO Wayne LaPierre calls out the "more than 100 chapters" of Democratic Socialists of America at universities across the country.

— Lois Beckett (@loisbeckett) February 22, 2018

Is it too optimistic to hear a little bit of panic in that?

there are 5,300 colleges and universities in the usa fyi

That's some deep digging even for LaPierre

hey kids, join the national slide to socialism wheeeeeeee

indeed. there's such a vast stigma against any sort of mental illness that it allows pro-gun people to put 'Mentally ill' people in a nice convenient box completely disconnected from *cough* "normal automatic weapon owners"

this. exactly. almost any attempt to make this about anything other than the widespread accessibility of guns *first and foremost*, at the end of the day, serves the NRA's interests. as if they give a fuckin hoot about helping the mentally ill (or victims of toxic masculinity or...)

― Simon H., Thursday, February 22, 2018 7:30 AM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

OTM.

Conservatism (and a good deal of American "moderate" politics) is fundamentally flawed, rotten at the root because of its focus on individuals and individual responsibility. Human beings are incredibly complex, there's millions of them with millions of different life experiences and genetic predisposition....trying to say "well lets focus on mental health" in terms of gun violence is ridiculous....

people commit crimes for thousands of reasons in thousands of unique circumstances, changing people's personal behavior is incredibly complex and difficult for government to tackle...what we CAN do is create an environment where -- on aggregate -- we can decrease the statistical likelihood that people engage in harmful behavior.

cigarettes are a great example, they've been taxed, banned in many places both inside and outside, made more expensive and less accessible, and they have gone down....conversely look at American diets -- we've created and environment where making bad food choices is incredibly easy, fast and cheap -- and making good decisions is more expensive and difficult and less accessible - lo and behold, we have terrible diets.

tl;dr conservatism is a con job and a sham of a "philosophy" in every case

xp there are about 33k dues paying DSA members vs 5 million dues paying NRA members.

speaking of young moms as ratings gold,

Dana Loesch came to me 10yrs ago pitching a sitcom starring herself: “A hot young mom who does far right radio show.” Said her age & looks would make 1 side hate her & 1 love her so everyone would watch. Was obsessed w the potential fame & money. I turned her down.

— Paul Guyot (@Fizzhogg) February 22, 2018

is she... a literal crisis actor?????

there are about 33k dues paying DSA members vs 5 million dues paying NRA members.

but every one of those 33k dsa folks is also an antifa supersoldier so it evens out imo

looking forward to her getting her own soft-focus network morning show ala Megyn Kelly in about 10 years.

xpost

i really like the "personal responsibility" angle mentioned upthread because it's a language that the nutty libertarian contingent understands

i.e. who is capable of taking personal responsibility for an assault weapon or a handgun? how do we make that decision? what are some models for dangerous equipment?

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Thursday, February 22, 2018 10:01 AM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i.e. it shouldn't be on schools, or on foster families, it should be on the individual. how can we ensure that individual is capable of taking responsibility?

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Thursday, February 22, 2018 10:02 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this was the opposite of my point btw, see m@tt’s otm post

the mentally ill are far far faaaar more likely to hurt themselves than others. also - every country has mentally ill people. every country has violent video games. every country has angry men. every country has depressed disaffected young people. every country does not have access to guns. i don't think i even saw a gun in real life until i went to america.

― jamiesummerz, Thursday, February 22, 2018 8:10 AM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

fully agree btw.

tl;dr conservatism is a con job and a sham of a "philosophy" in every case

Like most philosophies, it's not practical. Once it leaves a person's mind and interacts with the real world, it stumbles and flails around leaving a wake of damage/destruction.

Re: mental health, it's funny how quick people are to dismiss gun control ideas as either unworkable or ineffective, yet they'll trot out "MENTAL HEALTH" as some magic cure-all. If people know that if they see a doc for a psych issue, they might be barred (for life?) from getting firearms then how many will just decide to not seek treatment? Or like that Baker Act that was being mentioned at CNN townhall...1st, how can you be against gun control because it restricts our FREEDOM but be in favor of involuntarily committing to a mental hospital anyone who a cop/doc/whomever deems a threat or w/e? 2nd, same thing as w/being barred from owning a gun: wouldn't this result in LESS people seeking treatment for mental health issues?
But they don't care about the feasibility or effectiveness of the "mental health" aspect of gun violence problem. So long as the focus is not on guns, they could really give a shit.

Trump’s “mental institution” talk yesterday’s had me a little worried about the fate of anyone with mental health issues

And it makes the enormous assumption that mental health issues are even readily diagnosable and readily treatable which, hi i'm jon and i've been like this, whatever 'this' is, for 27 years.

xp

another one thwarted
https://www.yahoo.com/news/authorities-california-school-shooting-plot-thwarted-052756375.html

yeah I don't think some people understand that you can be "crazy" enough to decide to murder a bunch of random people yet you're not frothing at the mouth swinging from lightposts in a bathrobe. Vegas shooter obv "crazy" but could function in society w/o setting off anyone's alarm bells really.

but sure we should try to improve how we address mental health problems in US, why not. Grant them this point. Then ask how that precludes us from also addressing gun control.

Dana Loesch kept going on about her red flags thing wrt Parkland shooting and I was waiting for someone to say um ok but you know there have been many many other mass shootings and most of them were perpetrated by someone who didn't have "39 visits by law enforcement" or w/e she kept spouting. People tend to get stuck on the most recent shooting, on how that specific one could've been prevented.

addressing mental health instead of guns with regards to this issue is really so wrongheaded. a guy like Paddock was clearly a damaged human being, *maybe* not for any specific reason w/r/t childhood trauma mixed with clear mental health issues like Lanza or Cruz, he just had a dark hole at the center and had these fantasies he acted out on finally. He reminds me most of the BTK Killer or something, this guy who had some warning signs along the lines of being a complete dick and maybe a little off or creepy, but nothing that would make anyone think he'd be capable of this. the mental health net can't catch people like him, people who want to do this and have no warning signs, don't want to be caught, are extremely smart, etc.

the right wing is using a lot of the warning signs and mistakes w/Cruz as proof that he could have been stopped. Sure, I guess he could have? I heard one GOP creep ask, "Where were his parents??" Well they were dead and afaict he was caught up in a foster system where people couldn't see the larger picture. People spotted things but no one knew him long enough to see everything. Adam Lanza, what could have been done? He was a shut-in, protected by the mom he'd end up murdering, and no one knew what was going on in his mind. And of course those cases like i said don't account for Paddock or jeez even the Orlando shooter.

there is going to be another mass shooting. the NRA will continue to have to answer for them. This one knocked them back on their heels a bit. I don't want there to be another one, as much as I'd like to see the NRA go down I'd more like to see the reason be because they're an outmoded organization, not because these shootings keep occurring and they keep blaming everything but their death fetish shooter toys.

xxp well, that and the NRA opposes Red Flag laws.

i will be joining DSA in the next week; thx Wayne

echoing people upthread, these Parkland kids are giving me hope. all these shootings, and the debate and inaction that come with them have been super depressing but they are giving me the 1st bit of light.

Just another set of roosters coming home to crow. GOP's half-assed form of govt in 'i don't want to pay for it' is part of why FBI only has one call center (most likely outsourced)...putting it further than home offices and another step from regional offices.

What are they going to do arming teachers...f'in don't even want to pay for school supplies or decent benefits for them now.

Can't afford to keep schools warm in some places in winter or provide decent technology, yet you are going to put surveillance and other security systems.

Yeah right...