Another fucking spree shooting. Great.

In my opinion the main reason these shootings occur is the media coverage and instant fame they bring (Dear hero imprisoned...)

Is it too much to hope that, at some point, someone will shoot Wayne LaPierre in the face?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/22/nra-wayne-lapierre-gun-control-cpac-speech-2018

How are we supposed to neutralize the terrifying threat of a seven-year-old nibbling his Pop-Tart into the shape of a gun if we don't grant that child's teacher the ability to neutralize said threat with extreme prejudice. How.

oh HELL yeah

As a sign of the national slide to socialism, NRA CEO Wayne LaPierre calls out the "more than 100 chapters" of Democratic Socialists of America at universities across the country.

— Lois Beckett (@loisbeckett) February 22, 2018

Is it too optimistic to hear a little bit of panic in that?

there are 5,300 colleges and universities in the usa fyi

That's some deep digging even for LaPierre

hey kids, join the national slide to socialism wheeeeeeee

indeed. there's such a vast stigma against any sort of mental illness that it allows pro-gun people to put 'Mentally ill' people in a nice convenient box completely disconnected from *cough* "normal automatic weapon owners"

this. exactly. almost any attempt to make this about anything other than the widespread accessibility of guns *first and foremost*, at the end of the day, serves the NRA's interests. as if they give a fuckin hoot about helping the mentally ill (or victims of toxic masculinity or...)

― Simon H., Thursday, February 22, 2018 7:30 AM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

OTM.

Conservatism (and a good deal of American "moderate" politics) is fundamentally flawed, rotten at the root because of its focus on individuals and individual responsibility. Human beings are incredibly complex, there's millions of them with millions of different life experiences and genetic predisposition....trying to say "well lets focus on mental health" in terms of gun violence is ridiculous....

people commit crimes for thousands of reasons in thousands of unique circumstances, changing people's personal behavior is incredibly complex and difficult for government to tackle...what we CAN do is create an environment where -- on aggregate -- we can decrease the statistical likelihood that people engage in harmful behavior.

cigarettes are a great example, they've been taxed, banned in many places both inside and outside, made more expensive and less accessible, and they have gone down....conversely look at American diets -- we've created and environment where making bad food choices is incredibly easy, fast and cheap -- and making good decisions is more expensive and difficult and less accessible - lo and behold, we have terrible diets.

tl;dr conservatism is a con job and a sham of a "philosophy" in every case

xp there are about 33k dues paying DSA members vs 5 million dues paying NRA members.

speaking of young moms as ratings gold,

Dana Loesch came to me 10yrs ago pitching a sitcom starring herself: “A hot young mom who does far right radio show.” Said her age & looks would make 1 side hate her & 1 love her so everyone would watch. Was obsessed w the potential fame & money. I turned her down.

— Paul Guyot (@Fizzhogg) February 22, 2018

is she... a literal crisis actor?????

there are about 33k dues paying DSA members vs 5 million dues paying NRA members.

but every one of those 33k dsa folks is also an antifa supersoldier so it evens out imo

looking forward to her getting her own soft-focus network morning show ala Megyn Kelly in about 10 years.

xpost

i really like the "personal responsibility" angle mentioned upthread because it's a language that the nutty libertarian contingent understands

i.e. who is capable of taking personal responsibility for an assault weapon or a handgun? how do we make that decision? what are some models for dangerous equipment?

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Thursday, February 22, 2018 10:01 AM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i.e. it shouldn't be on schools, or on foster families, it should be on the individual. how can we ensure that individual is capable of taking responsibility?

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Thursday, February 22, 2018 10:02 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this was the opposite of my point btw, see m@tt’s otm post

the mentally ill are far far faaaar more likely to hurt themselves than others. also - every country has mentally ill people. every country has violent video games. every country has angry men. every country has depressed disaffected young people. every country does not have access to guns. i don't think i even saw a gun in real life until i went to america.

― jamiesummerz, Thursday, February 22, 2018 8:10 AM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

fully agree btw.

tl;dr conservatism is a con job and a sham of a "philosophy" in every case

Like most philosophies, it's not practical. Once it leaves a person's mind and interacts with the real world, it stumbles and flails around leaving a wake of damage/destruction.

Re: mental health, it's funny how quick people are to dismiss gun control ideas as either unworkable or ineffective, yet they'll trot out "MENTAL HEALTH" as some magic cure-all. If people know that if they see a doc for a psych issue, they might be barred (for life?) from getting firearms then how many will just decide to not seek treatment? Or like that Baker Act that was being mentioned at CNN townhall...1st, how can you be against gun control because it restricts our FREEDOM but be in favor of involuntarily committing to a mental hospital anyone who a cop/doc/whomever deems a threat or w/e? 2nd, same thing as w/being barred from owning a gun: wouldn't this result in LESS people seeking treatment for mental health issues?
But they don't care about the feasibility or effectiveness of the "mental health" aspect of gun violence problem. So long as the focus is not on guns, they could really give a shit.

Trump’s “mental institution” talk yesterday’s had me a little worried about the fate of anyone with mental health issues

And it makes the enormous assumption that mental health issues are even readily diagnosable and readily treatable which, hi i'm jon and i've been like this, whatever 'this' is, for 27 years.

xp

another one thwarted
https://www.yahoo.com/news/authorities-california-school-shooting-plot-thwarted-052756375.html

yeah I don't think some people understand that you can be "crazy" enough to decide to murder a bunch of random people yet you're not frothing at the mouth swinging from lightposts in a bathrobe. Vegas shooter obv "crazy" but could function in society w/o setting off anyone's alarm bells really.

but sure we should try to improve how we address mental health problems in US, why not. Grant them this point. Then ask how that precludes us from also addressing gun control.

Dana Loesch kept going on about her red flags thing wrt Parkland shooting and I was waiting for someone to say um ok but you know there have been many many other mass shootings and most of them were perpetrated by someone who didn't have "39 visits by law enforcement" or w/e she kept spouting. People tend to get stuck on the most recent shooting, on how that specific one could've been prevented.

addressing mental health instead of guns with regards to this issue is really so wrongheaded. a guy like Paddock was clearly a damaged human being, *maybe* not for any specific reason w/r/t childhood trauma mixed with clear mental health issues like Lanza or Cruz, he just had a dark hole at the center and had these fantasies he acted out on finally. He reminds me most of the BTK Killer or something, this guy who had some warning signs along the lines of being a complete dick and maybe a little off or creepy, but nothing that would make anyone think he'd be capable of this. the mental health net can't catch people like him, people who want to do this and have no warning signs, don't want to be caught, are extremely smart, etc.

the right wing is using a lot of the warning signs and mistakes w/Cruz as proof that he could have been stopped. Sure, I guess he could have? I heard one GOP creep ask, "Where were his parents??" Well they were dead and afaict he was caught up in a foster system where people couldn't see the larger picture. People spotted things but no one knew him long enough to see everything. Adam Lanza, what could have been done? He was a shut-in, protected by the mom he'd end up murdering, and no one knew what was going on in his mind. And of course those cases like i said don't account for Paddock or jeez even the Orlando shooter.

there is going to be another mass shooting. the NRA will continue to have to answer for them. This one knocked them back on their heels a bit. I don't want there to be another one, as much as I'd like to see the NRA go down I'd more like to see the reason be because they're an outmoded organization, not because these shootings keep occurring and they keep blaming everything but their death fetish shooter toys.

xxp well, that and the NRA opposes Red Flag laws.

i will be joining DSA in the next week; thx Wayne

echoing people upthread, these Parkland kids are giving me hope. all these shootings, and the debate and inaction that come with them have been super depressing but they are giving me the 1st bit of light.

Just another set of roosters coming home to crow. GOP's half-assed form of govt in 'i don't want to pay for it' is part of why FBI only has one call center (most likely outsourced)...putting it further than home offices and another step from regional offices.

What are they going to do arming teachers...f'in don't even want to pay for school supplies or decent benefits for them now.

Can't afford to keep schools warm in some places in winter or provide decent technology, yet you are going to put surveillance and other security systems.

Yeah right...

I like a couple of these conclusions; they coincide with what I heard from my own students yesterday.

1. Give Donald Trump Precisely 5 Percent of Your Mental Energy
These students aren’t wasting their time and energy on the president. Outside a handful of tweets on the day of the shootings, and a line or two in speeches and television appearances, the student protesters are modeling how to essentially ignore Donald Trump. They have no interest in talking to him or even about him. They have internalized the lesson that he is a symptom of the problem but unworthy of credit or blame. I suspect that if the rest of us ignored the president half as ably as they have, we’d all have vastly more emotional energy for the fights that really do matter.

2. Don’t Waste Time Fighting People Who Don’t Share Your Values and Goals
The Stoneman Douglas students don’t seem to be wasting their time debating or negotiating with the gun lovers on the other side. They are simply working to get gun legislation passed, to raise awareness, and to energize other young people. As someone who has devoted the greater part of the past year to an intramural media debate about whether to give up completely on the other side or to strive to change hearts and minds, it’s refreshing to see that this doesn’t really matter. Stoneman Douglas can’t be bothered with David Brooks. Endless progressive debate over engagement with opponents or the lack thereof and the complex moral nuance of allyship is a luxury these kids cannot afford and aren’t bothered by. Good for them. They have work to do. If Wednesday night’s CNN town hall proved anything, it was that the National Rifle Association and GOP senators literally have no answers for them. They aren’t wasting time on gentle persuasion. They know when they are being lied to.

dr morbius: antifa supersoldier

thx for your service doc

hell yeah Morbs

“I want my schools protected just like I want my banks protected,” the president said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/22/us/politics/trump-guns-school-shootings.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

The instant one thinks about that analogy it becomes ridiculous. If school shooters are the analog to bank robbers and their goal is not money, but victims, then Trump is advocating that the shooting victims be handed over to the shooters quietly and cooperatively, because that's what bank employees are instructed to do with the money a robber demands.

Baby steps, baby steps . . .

Customer feedback has caused us to review our relationship with the NRA. As a result, First National Bank of Omaha will not renew its contract with the National Rifle Association to issue the NRA Visa Card.

— First National Bank (@FNBOmaha) February 22, 2018

kevin sorry, i see now that i misread your post. i saw m@tt's post and agree with it btw! but i do think there is something about individual responsibility here that is worth thinking through. drivers are held individually responsible for their actions on the road. but they're not allowed to drive a formula 1 car on the interstate. there is a cut-off point at which we as a society feel comfortable in saying, it is simply impossible for any person (x) to handle (y) responsibility in a way that doesn't endanger others. you want to drive an F1 car on a racetrack after passing a certain license regime? fine. you want to shoot an uzi in a controlled environment after passing a battery of tests? fine. but it is on YOU to achieve that level of responsibility. it's on US as a society to draw those lines. which are fairly uncontroversial when it comes to almost any other form of death-dealing machine i.e. cars, heavy equipment etc

an "NRA Visa Card"? Really, that exists? It's so far beyond parody.

Baby steps indeed though.

how can you be against gun control because it restricts our FREEDOM but be in favor of involuntarily committing to a mental hospital anyone who a cop/doc/whomever deems a threat or w/e

kevin sorry, i see now that i misread your post. i saw m@tt's post and agree with it btw! but i do think there is something about individual responsibility here that is worth thinking through. drivers are held individually responsible for their actions on the road. but they're not allowed to drive a formula 1 car on the interstate. there is a cut-off point at which we as a society feel comfortable in saying, it is simply impossible for any person (x) to handle (y) responsibility in a way that doesn't endanger others. you want to drive an F1 car on a racetrack after passing a certain license regime? fine. you want to shoot an uzi in a controlled environment after passing a battery of tests? fine. but it is on YOU to achieve that level of responsibility. it's on US as a society to draw those lines. which are fairly uncontroversial when it comes to almost any other form of death-dealing machine i.e. cars, heavy equipment etc

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Thursday, February 22, 2018 3:55 PM (nine minutes ago)

sure, this is something for society to wrestle with, and I would of course argue the bar should be set very high (if we grant the right to own and use firearms at all). this is essentially what the discussions about gun control measures is all about

my larger point was that, given that the rules governing gun ownership are currently a joke, it is not much use to talk about the personal responsibility of individual mass murderers, when clearly the failing is on the part of society for allowing access to guns in the first place. excessive focus on the failings of individual mass murderers also, imo, plays into the hands of gun nuts (who want the discussion to be about bad apples rather than the guns themselves), and, in the very common event that the mass murderer turns out to be mentally ill, pointless

the way i have been framing that in pointless facebork arguments lately is that the gun right itself entails responsibilities, of members of society to one another, and it seems like especially those who are concerned to exercise the right shoulder more of a burden to see that the common good is served by our recognition and exercise of a right when that right burdens or creates a risk for others who do not care to exercise it (or cannot, in the case of children).

similarly, legalized alcohol doesn't just enable individual people to drink and saddle them with individual responsibilities not to drink in certain ways; it creates a whole web of obligations about how we do many other things, incumbent upon non-drinkers and drinkers even when not drinking.

this is all elementary but rights talk is construed in an especially insidiously individualistic way in discussions like this, and it needs an appropriate antidote framed in terms of the social good served by the recognition of rights.

But the courts or Constitution have recognized no right, fundamental or otherwise, to purchase or consume alcohol whereas SCOTUS has for possessing (with exceptions) firearms.

which is why a repeal of the Second Amendment, however chimerical, should be the long range goal much like breaking the back of separate but equal was for the NAACP in the 1930s and 1940s cases.

An armed school resource deputy who was assigned to Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School has resigned after being suspended, Broward county sheriff says.

The deputy took up position but “never went in” to the building, according to the sheriff.

— BuzzFeed News (@BuzzFeedNews) February 22, 2018

mediocre guy with a gun

now if he had only been a *teacher*....

probably wishful thinking and not a huge deal on its own, but this seems like it's not going anywhere

First National Bank ends relationship with NRA https://t.co/1Sz6C3m9kh

— Yashar Ali 🐘 (@yashar) February 22, 2018

Think it was mentioned on the us politics thread. What fucked up universe ever allowed an "NRA visa card" in the first place? What country are you when you have banks entangled in the weapon industry? Rhetorical stuff I know etc, but c'mon.

America has turned into Bizarro America and the world outside America is only noticing how dire it really is.

i know this has been said by just about everyone but the arming the teachers idea is just soooooooooooooo embarrassingly stupid

What country are you when you have banks entangled in the weapon industry?

lol is this really shocking to you

Countries and weapon industries mixed? Not shocking. Countries where you can have an "NRA Visa card"? Def shocking. It's ludicrous to have gun "culture" ingrained in a country's DNA like this. America is a ludicrous country. I knew this, it's not "shocking", and yet it's way more severe than I could even imagine.

isn't entanglement in industries like the definition of banking