Reveal Your Uncool Conservative Beliefs Here

xp
yeah I could be way wrong on this, but I would have thought the "mystical woo" aspects would make him unappealing to conservatives, but I guess it depends on how narrowly you want to define "conservative." I mean, marcos's quote is basically an argument in favor of paganism.

Appealing to fascists then, how's that?

identity politics is fucking exhausting

Go on

ya, sucking cock is exhausting

apt

The phrase “toxic masculinity” is badly conceived and the fact that it sounds like it means masculinity is toxic makes it counterproductive. The fact that you have to explain it every time you use it makes it worthless

The things that are bad about “toxic masculinity” are just the things that are bad about masculinity, the extra adjective essentially signifies “#notallmen”

iirc a non-negligable number of ppl who use the idiom believe that all "masculinity" is toxic

you said iirc when you meant ime

If you have to explain what 'toxic masculinity' means every time you use it, it seems to me you only speak to some kinds of people.

Fortunately for me and my people it never comes up in conversation

It's too bad you don't like it but it is a thing. If you need it explained to you over and over again... it might even your own damn fault?

I'm grateful for all the "as the adult in the room,..." reveals itt

this isn't the gratitude room bro

This is the uncool room stop tryna be cool

It's too bad you don't like it but it is a thing

is it 'toxic femininity' when some psycho mommy drowns her kids in a tub?

is it 'toxic transpersonery' when a trans person does something shitty/aggressive/criminal?

toxic ilxery

'toxic masculinity' without any other analogous terms for other genders implies that it's disproportionately men, or maybe only men, who have it within their nature to do horrible, violent things. which could be true! but doesn't it then open the door to talk about other groups of people who are disproportionately likely to commit atrocities? isn't that the kind of conversation y'all generally want to no-platform?

I think the bigger hurdle/thing you have to explain every time here isn't separating between toxic and non-toxic masculinity, it's keeping in mind that masculinity doesn't = men and everything they do.

sleepingbag is a more assertive roger adultery who knew

I think the thing is that a lot of people probably need toxic masculinity explained to them because they don't know what it means, not everyone is plugged into woke twitter. I also think it's probably best to lead by gentle example w/most people, I don't believe people getting aggressively confronted or called out for stepping wrong works as well as others believe. I know getting aggressively confronted from right wing types has never made me go "hmmm...maybe they're correct." I don't dispute that emotions run high on subjects and I don't think people are necessarily wrong to feel argumentative at points. I don't know whether or not this is a conservative belief but maybe since I guess it could be argued that debating more diplomatically slows down social progress. Maybe? Idk.

I'll defer to sleepingbag's expertise on the subject

True story, I once came home from Roskilde Festival with a weird rash, and it turned out to be because my sleepingbag was toxic.

I am not a huge fan of callout culture but there are many times when it is necessary

I needed it in my early 20s tho

i don't think it worked

It's been known that he's that for a while but folks will engage nonetheless. xposts

Omar, I think that if pushed most will agree that diplomatic debate is important, it's just a lot of ppl are sick of being the ones that have to do it. You need ppl on your side for social progress, there are exceptions but mostly that's what it boils down to.

Ok Mordy w/e

sorry but we're gonna have to call you out a whole bunch more if we're going to get you in shape

That's never gonna happen.

I'm an unfixable mess

is it 'toxic femininity' when some psycho mommy drowns her kids in a tub?

No, it's

https://i.imgur.com/yRhkuFO.gif

is it 'toxic femininity' when some psycho mommy drowns her kids in a tub?

is it 'toxic transpersonery' when a trans person does something shitty/aggressive/criminal?

'toxic masculinity' without any other analogous terms for other genders implies that it's disproportionately men, or maybe only men, who have it within their nature to do horrible, violent things. which could be true! but doesn't it then open the door to talk about other groups of people who are disproportionately likely to commit atrocities? isn't that the kind of conversation y'all generally want to no-platform?

― sleepingbag, Saturday, March 24, 2018 6:58 PM (twelve minutes ago)

hm, so which one would you like to discuss first

educate me baby

it's true that men on average have higher rates of violence than women. it's also true that the variances between individuals in a particular gender are much wider than when compared in aggregate.

Oh is that a fact

it’s obv true the question is if it’s material

I think the bigger hurdle/thing you have to explain every time here isn't separating between toxic and non-toxic masculinity, it's keeping in mind that masculinity doesn't = men and everything they do.

― Daniel_Rf, Saturday, March 24, 2018 10:59 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Surely masculinity kind of does mean 'men and everything they do' though? As an individual man there's nothing you do and nothing you are that is somehow outside of masculinity? Like how when ppl arguing about stuff on the internet say "ok, but leaving gender/race/class aside for a moment...", and it makes no sense because there's nothing 'beyond' those things.

If I'm reading you right you're saying that a man hearing the term 'toxic masculinity' will likely understand it as an indictment of everything they are and could ever be, and reject it on that basis, so there's a need to explain that an indictment of masculinity is not necessarily an indictment of them as an individual - but it is an indictment of them as an individual! Once you subtract 'masculinity' from them as a person, there's literally nothing left

um, no. just no.

Right, so if I say this milk is toxic then I'm disparaging all milk? This is not how adjectives work.

some people use the term 'toxic masculinity' in a way that doesn't preclude the existence of non-toxic masculinity, but I thought from what Daniel said he was basically taking the same angle as sibly earlier:

The things that are bad about “toxic masculinity” are just the things that are bad about masculinity, the extra adjective essentially signifies “#notallmen”

― valorous wokelord (silby), Saturday, March 24, 2018 7:00 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

or like Mordy said 'a non-negligable number of ppl who use the idiom believe that all "masculinity" is toxic'

That's not what's wrong aboyt what you're saying.

what's your take on why I'm wrong

not everyone is plugged into woke twitter

Praise be.

xp I don't mean that to sound passive aggressive, I mean it's very likely that I am wrong! would just like to know where you're coming from

'Masculinity' is not the whole of my identity, it's a social construct. And a harmful one at that.

That's not to say that 'masculinity' is a randomly created term. Ironically, most of my feminist work, consisting of pretty militant anti-MRA articles, would probably be said to be typically male and testostorone prone - and has been called out as that by women. But I also know part of why my writing has been somewhat impactful has a lot to do with me being male, and being allowed to write angry things without being described as 'hysterical' for instance. And that's why I'm okay with 'masculinity' being described as toxic, even though I'm quite 'masculine' myself.

can't it be both a social construct and also the whole of your identity simultaneously? is there any part of your existence that isn't shaped by this social construct?

don't mind me, just passing by and fucking off again

- i'm not sure anybody is just one aspect of their identity all the time, and i think all aspects of identity are to some extent situational and performative. so it ought to be possible in theory to question those aspects of ourselves and critique them and to at least wonder whether we could do them differently. fwiw i think these are also the assumptions of people who think masculinity has positives that should be emphasized or developed.

And that's why I'm okay with 'masculinity' being described as toxic, even though I'm quite 'masculine' myself.

Are you though? Or is that you’re Tuomas two? A weird bald Scandinavian looking for love and cred in all the wrong places?