the alt-right

maybe see if he has any tweets that will get him kicked out of school

there was a parenting thread on this theme recently (child getting into the alt-right) w/ some varied advice. i think it helps to get where the kid is coming from and what is motivating them. if they're just into the edginess and transgressiveness you'd need to have a different conversation (and steer them differently) then if they're having anxiety about their future, and totally different from if they just hate hypocritical progressives, etc. hopefully parents have been engaging their kids on these kinds of topics for years tho and aren't just getting started when they find /pol/ bookmarked in safari.

actually yeah you're right xxp

but either way i'm still not convinced that pointing to the example of the dashingly handsome founder of jpl who lived a life of wild abandon is gonna do much to dissuade young people from exploring satanism

A close friend of mine's 15yo son with autism (mild, but more than aspie) is into this stuff too (alt-right, not satanism). Youtube was definitely the main vector, which is why I brought it up up-thread.

For him, it's obviously not at all about edginess or the shock value or masculinity or the appeal of violence. He's earnest, without that sly disingenuousness (yes, "bad faith") that's the stock-in-trade of every Republican voter.

I think it has to do with a warped sense of fairness, of not understanding the fundamental asymmetries between, for example, the left and the right. The modern world, I guess, is understood only through a narrative lens, where every force is met with another that is understood to be by definition equal and opposite. Things like "good" and "evil" are just tags, just hats that different teams wear. So he gets righteously indignant when a nazi gets punched in the face or not allowed to speak on a campus, because that's not "fair". He can't understand that antifa and nazis aren't just the same guys with different uniforms. His world is so safe that he doesn't understand the stakes. I think that's a big part of why Trump got elected: people wanting to "shake things up" have no conception of how bad things can be. The worst thing they can imagine is a really bad recession; they can't begin to conceive that genocide could happen here, or what totalitarianism actually entails.

booming post

time for a visit to the holocaust museum

otm

Have a newly (yet unhappily) married friend who's been gushing about how great Peterson has been for him as a self-help guru. After discussing with him it turns out he has never even heard the term alt-right and has no interest in or knowledge of the ideology/politics behind Peterson's material.

Trying to get him to look deeper but can't find any critiques of Peterson that are both concise and not full of vitriol. Anyone know of anything (preferably in video format) that might be helpful?

why not ask him to show you some passages JP has written that he finds particularly meaningful and then read them yourself and discuss them with him?

if you just want a one stop fisking then the current affairs piece is the best thing i've read and really exposes the void at the heart of JP's intellectual project. but nothing beats discussing the actual texts that your friend is responding to.

it looks like the self-helpy parts are kinda like a dime store Marcus Aurelius minus the gratitude, empathy, and humility

Just point to the fact that this man got famous for shouting down a group of trans folks.

Yeah, I'd show him what Peterson actually says on ideological issues first and see what he thinks of it.

There's this, from fall 2016, which is when I think he first started becoming prominent in Canada.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiijS_9hPkM

fwiw i think that's a bad approach. his friend isn't going to abandon someone he's getting perceived value out of bc he isn't politically correct. he'll either explain away the improper political position, or he'll say that "well i still like him despite this" or he'll agree with it (which is what ppl do when they are challenged with an inconsistency)! you need to dig into precisely what he is getting out of JP and help him see that JP is entirely full of shit and he's either accepting platitudes as great meaning, or he's reading content into vague assertions, or maybe you'll admit that in some particular writings JP has something to say, but those options will engage your friend in a deeper way than sending him links of how bad JP is.

If it's someone you care about, I think Mordy's approach is best. I think an adult--particularly a male adult--even just taking enough of an interest to discuss big ideas and most importantly *listen* in a non-prescriptive context to a teenager in their life describe what he's thinking and feeling would make a huge difference. They feel *seen* by JP (though it is a con).

I think Mordy's approach is a good second step, but it seems like tsrobodo's friend doesn't even have a complete picture yet. Lots of recent followers of Peterson have probably never heard anything about the Bill C-16 controversy. If the response is "I still like him despite this," then that at least serves to complicate the picture.

The last couple of posts are very interesting. I'm getting more curious about JP recently, because a colleague of mine who is a really kind and thoughtful person mentioned him in a positive light recently in conversation. I asked him if he was aware of JP's alt-right connections, and he just kind of smirked, shrugged, and rolled his eyes giving me the impression that he was and possibly didn't believe it. This guy is older, definitely seems to have mostly liberal politics, yet is also single (and has been for a long time), has definitely mentioned some MRA stuff in the past, and seems to view life in absolutes (not just politically, but his whole approach to dealing with job-related issues as well). He's a huge Jung personality type guy - has more or less written an unpublished book about it - and generally prefers solitude. I've wondered before if he might be somewhere on the autism spectrum. I guess I mention this as a way to profile someone who might be more susceptible to someone like JP. He also likes J*e R*gan's podcast and I think became aware of JP from that, so I've been sort of procrastinating watching that to try to get a better idea of what might be appealing to someone like my colleague about JP.

a co-worker brought JP up on Slack in a public channel a couple months back and had no idea about the transphobic shit. I went off on him a bit. (He left the company a little later. I'm assuming that was unrelated.)

just show him this meme

https://i.imgur.com/RtYEoiL.jpg

looool

my posts are free y'all

just show him this meme

https://i.imgur.com/RtYEoiL.jpg

― kurt schwitterz

i laughed

same

pretty good

https://twitter.com/JPetersonReview

why not ask him to show you some passages JP has written that he finds particularly meaningful and then read them yourself and discuss them with him?

― Mordy, Thursday, March 22, 2018 5:58 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This would be ideal if there were any passages he could point to to begin with.

I'm pretty certain he exclusively watches youtube clips and listens to podcasts, which is why I had hoped one of those summarise stuff youtube people (vox, nerdwriter etc.) had done like a primer or something I could use as a starting point. Surprised how hard it is to find stuff like that.

Really though the idea of having to personally listen to hours of Jordan Peterson just to be able to make a case to my friend gives me hives. I know its potentially counterproductive to look for shortcuts with things like this but life's too short

Doesn't help that he himself is hazy on the appeal. Much of what he says he likes boils down to, "He's just so honest", "He breaks things down really well", "Leaves no room for excuses".

i hate watching youtube lectures really from anyone and from JP in particular i imagine it's a nightmare but maybe you could say to him "hey i really want to understand the appeal is there a particular 5 minute segment somewhere that you think is just the best thing you've heard from him so i can get an idea of what you like?"

I mean the latest Chapo is a pretty sober conversation pointing out JP's snake oil bullshit, even though the ep starts with a bad Elon Musk improv bit - but why is does a Joe Rogan fan need a non-jokey, intellectual discussion of JP?

Nathan Robinson was on Majority Report on Monday to go over his Peterson piece and is really good:

http://majorityfm.libsyn.com/1798-jordan-peterson-the-intellectual-we-deserve-w-nathan-j-robinson

tell em grown ass men shouldn't need a YouTube Daddy.

oh man im going to steal that

You guys joke but his rules are being widely applied in crucial situations.

https://instagram.com/p/Benm0eZFxTl/

thanks for the pod xps some pretty useful segments I can clip. and thanks Mordy will give it a go

Trying really hard not to be condescending here cause that seems like the easiest way to make sure he has no time for anything I say.

Don't really know the average profile of the young guys consuming this stuff but here I'm talking about someone who sent to London as a 9 year old, first gen immigrant with no fixed parental figure of any kind. A guy who escaped the juvenile offender trap, got a degree, started a career but fought uphill all the way.

Or in other words someone who could reasonably argue a youtube daddy is better than none.

If he feels the absence of kind of mentor figure in his life who am I to tell him otherwise?

It feels not good the way this fucker’s name is just everywhere now

That he might as well be watching a cartoon or a televangelist

Milo’s name was all over the place, what, a year ago?

Did you miss the part where I was trying not to condescend?

Hang fire that instagram pic a few posts up is 2 months old and i've no idea who that 'author' is but he's only got 940 followers!

Much of what he says he likes boils down to, "He's just so honest", "He breaks things down really well", "Leaves no room for excuses"

these are the words of a person for whom things must be made more difficult

Did you miss the part where I was trying not to condescend?

Doug Lain at Zero Books has put out several vids responding to and debunking JP

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFad02vA5AOE1H54uQgJbJxBDonm-Gmpw

ugh

i have scanned through MAPS OF MEANING and i am both chagrined and gratified to report that max is right

irritatingly, it seems ideally suited to bolstering the credibility of a charlatan

Much of what he says he likes boils down to, "He's just so honest", "He breaks things down really well", "Leaves no room for excuses"

these are the words of a person for whom things must be made more difficult

Then I guess the question is how do you get somebody to actually want that? Cause I don't think you get anywhere unless they do.

I guess I did, and then thought about it, and I think the ref is going to call this wrestling match a draw at this point. That (points at screen) is not a good mentor. Somebody he knows is just as wise and cares a lot more about him. JP clearly only cares himself.

Because bolded aside (cause how would this even be an issue if that were true? and even if it were what's to say that person is free to be talking into his ear during his morning commute?) I don't struggle to see that. But the fact that its obvious to you and me has no bearing on why he see's things differently.

lol i dunno, ask kierkegaard, or socrates

JP's individual focus let's him offer a lot of inspirational Take Charge advice but he just doesn't seem to understand any wider structural pressures. if I were trying to get someone to rethink I'd try to find a case of someone who they were sympathetic to who suffered bc of systemic unfairness and point out how unsympathetic JP would be and try to chip away at the Tough Dad Telling It Like It Is to reveal the ignorance underneath. or just be lazy and do extremely enthusiastic and bad JP-like takes on everything (kermit voice optional) until they get fed up

he's such a silly figure you can have a lot of gentle fun with his views without acting like a blowhard

this is the banner from the JP reddit

https://i.imgur.com/2VkqooM.jpg

I think ppl should be able to be more convincingly straight and less bullshitty than this

It’s missing some key elements of Nintendo and Disney IP

this is the banner from the JP reddit

Poll

gotta be honest i keep think y'all are talking about Jurassic Park itt

other JP less culturally important than that