the alt-right

Hang fire that instagram pic a few posts up is 2 months old and i've no idea who that 'author' is but he's only got 940 followers!

Much of what he says he likes boils down to, "He's just so honest", "He breaks things down really well", "Leaves no room for excuses"

these are the words of a person for whom things must be made more difficult

Did you miss the part where I was trying not to condescend?

Doug Lain at Zero Books has put out several vids responding to and debunking JP

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFad02vA5AOE1H54uQgJbJxBDonm-Gmpw

ugh

i have scanned through MAPS OF MEANING and i am both chagrined and gratified to report that max is right

irritatingly, it seems ideally suited to bolstering the credibility of a charlatan

Much of what he says he likes boils down to, "He's just so honest", "He breaks things down really well", "Leaves no room for excuses"

these are the words of a person for whom things must be made more difficult

Then I guess the question is how do you get somebody to actually want that? Cause I don't think you get anywhere unless they do.

I guess I did, and then thought about it, and I think the ref is going to call this wrestling match a draw at this point. That (points at screen) is not a good mentor. Somebody he knows is just as wise and cares a lot more about him. JP clearly only cares himself.

Because bolded aside (cause how would this even be an issue if that were true? and even if it were what's to say that person is free to be talking into his ear during his morning commute?) I don't struggle to see that. But the fact that its obvious to you and me has no bearing on why he see's things differently.

lol i dunno, ask kierkegaard, or socrates

JP's individual focus let's him offer a lot of inspirational Take Charge advice but he just doesn't seem to understand any wider structural pressures. if I were trying to get someone to rethink I'd try to find a case of someone who they were sympathetic to who suffered bc of systemic unfairness and point out how unsympathetic JP would be and try to chip away at the Tough Dad Telling It Like It Is to reveal the ignorance underneath. or just be lazy and do extremely enthusiastic and bad JP-like takes on everything (kermit voice optional) until they get fed up

he's such a silly figure you can have a lot of gentle fun with his views without acting like a blowhard

this is the banner from the JP reddit

https://i.imgur.com/2VkqooM.jpg

I think ppl should be able to be more convincingly straight and less bullshitty than this

It’s missing some key elements of Nintendo and Disney IP

this is the banner from the JP reddit

Poll

gotta be honest i keep think y'all are talking about Jurassic Park itt

other JP less culturally important than that

I dunno if pointing out Peterson's shallowness as a philosopher is going to get fans on your side any more than pointing out his reprehensible politics because what ppl are using Peterson for is self-help, and "accepting platitudes as great meaning" and "reading content into vague assertions" is what most of that stuff boils down to even when it's not weighed down w/ dodgy ideology. People enjoy thinking that he's a deep philosopher for the cred but I doubt many are reading him as an alternative to Derrida (or whoever).

Otoh while I certainly have a knee-jerk dislike of self-help it can and has been helpful to ppl in my life, so pointing ppl to others who provide those services would maybe work - can't help at all re: who that could be tho.

Therapists

I don't think ppl who opt for Peterson because they view him as more manly and credible than other self-help gurus are likely to be open to therapy, at least not unless you put in a *lot* of work to acclimatize them first.

lol was just gonna suggest "real men"

just realised there might be a gap in the market here, could charge people £60 an hour to shout "PULL YOURSELF TOGETHER" at them in a quiet room

yeah this would be like trying to convince neil degrasse tyson fans that his scientific work has been dogged by accusations of improperly isolated samples and potentially misleading statistical regression or something. it's not what they're there for.

really what this comes down to is that youtube is a fucking curse and it should be blasted from existence immediately

These last few takedowns - and the meltdown - seems to have shifted the discourse around JP quite a lot, though. Perhaps not among his fans, but I'll assume most commentators will think twice before they praise him again. I don't think many of those people had read him either.

yeah I thought it was overkill at first but I think it's actually been somewhat helpful

Which parts did you think were overkill?

oh just the sheer number of long pieces on him - Nathan J Robinson in Current Affairs, Shuja Haider in Viewpoint (and again on Chapo), John Semley in the Globe, Pankaj Mishra in NYRB, probably more I'm forgetting about, all with somewhat different approaches

any degree of attention is overkill tbh

I mean, the attention was happening anyway. he has a bestseller and a massive following.

Oh, ok. Personally, I would have been fine with just Robinson and Mishra, and Mishra is really trying to get at something else and broader. I'd really love for JP to fuck off at this point, he seems profoundly exposed, but oh well. I'm also thinking of writing an essay on the recent mythological turn in a lot of underground cinema, and I should probably read JP for that :(

all those pieces appearing at once is of course evidence that jp's unassailable logic has leftists shook to their cores and they have been coordinating against him behind the scenes

i figure there must be lots better Jungians and mythology profs than JP to turn to, kind of doubt his academic chops. would faaaaar rather read James Hillman on Jung, for one thing

yeah but they won't tell readers to wipe thoroughly or w/ever

all the jung and mythology stuff just seem like props to hold up peterson's ridiculous opinions, i v much doubt he actually has anything novel or interesting to say about either topic

it's like dear old Dick Dawks, once you set yourself up as a Twitter defender of truth it actually undermines any good academic work you might've previously done

at least dawkins had contributed something to his academic field before he succumbed to the brain worms, i dunno if i've ever heard anyone stan for peterson's academic work

Yeah, I'm definitely not reading him in the hopes of getting any insight into mythology, but as an example of Mishras fascist mysticism.

I'm just getting allergic to all this bullshit about 'ancient' ideas. Saw a new documentary called Becoming Animal, based on the thoughts of David Abram, and just sat there the whole time thinking it was pseudo-fascist claptrap. Probably an overreaction, but anyway. It's bullshit.

yeah but they won't tell readers to wipe thoroughly or w/ever

looool

all the jung and mythology stuff just seem like props to hold up peterson's ridiculous opinions, i v much doubt he actually has anything novel or interesting to say about either topic

It's also to get dudes who are really into Disney movies onboard.

If people are getting into Peterson strictly as a self-help guru, and don't even know about his political activism (which seems funny from my perspective but w/e), what exactly is the harm that we are concerned about?

that the self-help shit well help to sneak in the more awful ideas, I assume

fwiw I don't think they're entirely separate - not that I've read anything but excerpts but there is a lot of stuff in there about personal responsibility, owing up to your own failures, etc. that dovetails nicely w/ a political pov that rejects any kind of structural critique. Unlikely to turn anyone into a fascist or transphobe, tho.

I guess also if you accept someone as your self-help god you're quite likely to agree w/ his politics once you find out about them

^^^

i'm not actually concerned about harm at all i just like lolling at the last defenders of christendom

there is a lot of stuff in there about personal responsibility, owing up to your own failures, etc. that dovetails nicely w/ a political pov that rejects any kind of structural critique

Btw, I know what you mean, but it seems to me that someone who believes that postmodern neo-Marxists have corrupted academia and media and by extension the minds of people in the West - to the point where JP being turned down for a six-figure government grant can be blamed on a PC conspiracy and not his personal failure - is in fact a strong believer in structural critique.

Serious question: why is the left unable to reach out to the types of dudes who fall for JP's drivel?

xp

that's an interesting thought actually, "conspiracy" isn't thought of in the same terms as structural critique by these guys - the system is natural and inevitable but constantly at threat of being systematically corrupted?

Blaming said dudes for it is not a valid answer as it partly vindicates JP's strategy btw.

xp

crypto-racists don't much cotton to the "left" from what i gather when i read the internet

bc structural critiques do not create a lot of room for making individual improvements in your life. the only route to action is activism which is its own wishful thinking (that it will make any difference, and any immediate difference in your life). but individuals do have a lot of input into how their lives turn out. you can get yourself educated, you can work on your grit, you can grow yourself as a person and achieve actual results. but none of those things really resonate with a structural critique of society. knowing that it's capitalism's fault won't help your life one iota. xxp

Because if we do, we call them Berniebros and blame them for giving elections away to Russia or something? 4xp

it's possible that describing complex structural narratives which place the individual within a mesh of competing forces over which they never have full control is less appealing than shouting "PULL YOURSELF TOGETHER" for an hour

that'll be £60, cheers.