the alt-right

i'm not actually concerned about harm at all i just like lolling at the last defenders of christendom

there is a lot of stuff in there about personal responsibility, owing up to your own failures, etc. that dovetails nicely w/ a political pov that rejects any kind of structural critique

Btw, I know what you mean, but it seems to me that someone who believes that postmodern neo-Marxists have corrupted academia and media and by extension the minds of people in the West - to the point where JP being turned down for a six-figure government grant can be blamed on a PC conspiracy and not his personal failure - is in fact a strong believer in structural critique.

Serious question: why is the left unable to reach out to the types of dudes who fall for JP's drivel?

xp

that's an interesting thought actually, "conspiracy" isn't thought of in the same terms as structural critique by these guys - the system is natural and inevitable but constantly at threat of being systematically corrupted?

Blaming said dudes for it is not a valid answer as it partly vindicates JP's strategy btw.

xp

crypto-racists don't much cotton to the "left" from what i gather when i read the internet

bc structural critiques do not create a lot of room for making individual improvements in your life. the only route to action is activism which is its own wishful thinking (that it will make any difference, and any immediate difference in your life). but individuals do have a lot of input into how their lives turn out. you can get yourself educated, you can work on your grit, you can grow yourself as a person and achieve actual results. but none of those things really resonate with a structural critique of society. knowing that it's capitalism's fault won't help your life one iota. xxp

Because if we do, we call them Berniebros and blame them for giving elections away to Russia or something? 4xp

it's possible that describing complex structural narratives which place the individual within a mesh of competing forces over which they never have full control is less appealing than shouting "PULL YOURSELF TOGETHER" for an hour

that'll be £60, cheers.

basically if you want to improve the conditions of your personal and immediate life the left has very little to say to you

and those that do have something to say might be very very wrong...but i agree that we're almost compelled to behave as if personally improvement is always possible and effective

"compelled" not by The Bad Guys but by our cognitive processes whether they're innate or learned

idk personally I found being able to identify structural forces behind the dismal and depressing events and forces in life to be quite liberating but I guess that's not what everyone experiences

having said that, people have often improved the conditions of their personal and immediate lives through collective action and struggle, just not at the macro levels so much

Perhaps the left out to eschew non-compatibilism (absolute determinism) for compatibilism (free will and determinism's uneasy truce).

liberating in what sense? like it lets you off the hook or helps you stop blaming yourself okay, but it doesn't help you figure out how to get a better job, negotiate a better wage, meet an appealing significant other, etc. xxp

I don't really see how right-wing politics helps you do those things, either, Mordy.

having said that, people have often improved the conditions of their personal and immediate lives through collective action and struggle, just not at the macro levels so much

it's a bit much imo to ask ppl who want to earn a higher income to dedicate themselves to collective action and struggle maybe for many years without any results with the hope that maybe one day material conditions will improve. it may be the only way to actually *fix* things but on a personal individualized atomistic level it seems v unsatisfying to me.

i thought we're talking about self-help gurus? xp

take initiative. have confidence. work on your mind. work on your body. smooth out the rough edges of your personality. stop blaming yourself. etc. i mean these are trite but ppl use these kinds of banalities to make material improvements (sometimes). or at least they promise as much. "you are being held down by capitalism" doesn't lend itself obviously to many courses of action, i mean maybe throwing rocks through Starbucks windows but idk if that helps anyone very much.

what i'm thinking about Mordy is union-type actions against specific employers, or community activist groups taking on local issues - far easier to achieve an outcome than to imagine overthrowing the machinery of capitalism

Long history of 'the left' being all about personal self-improvement, self-education, as well as strong links to temperance movements and such. Alongside structural critique.

you can improve your min wage through a union-type action (tho less and less likely in 2018 that such a thing will succeed) but even that has a cap on what you can do. if you aspire to more - like becoming management yourself, or accumulating capital, aka the American dream, collective action is not sufficient.

and it's as likely that this kind of local engagement might lead you to other benefits - friendship groups, significant others, education etc - as an atomistic will to self-improvement.

if you aspire to becoming management or accumulating capital i agree, i personally don't have much to say to you or offer you :D

i thought we're talking about self-help gurus? xp

Oh, well, then I'm very confused about what we're discussing. I thought pomenitul was saying that the political left doesn't reach the kinds of guys who are being motivated by Peterson's political activism (which I'm not sure is entirely true). if we're talking about self-help gurus, I don't think they're necessarily left-wing or right-wing. I should probably take personal responsibility and focus on work.

if you aspire to more - like becoming management yourself, or accumulating capital, aka the American dream

...then yeah the left was never going to appeal to you!

if you aspire to more - like becoming management yourself, or accumulating capital, aka the American dream

Haha yeah I guess there's some cultural crosstalk here on what we view as "improving your conditions".

Long history of 'the left' being all about personal self-improvement, self-education, as well as strong links to temperance movements and such. Alongside structural critique.

Yeah, none of these things are essentially left-wing or right-wing.

But I don't think yr average confused Peterson acolyte is super angling for that place in the corporate boardroom. xpost

yeah, a lot of my leftie friends growing up were consummate fuck-ups who couldn't get their own shit together who just happened to have brilliant political minds.

i think for most ppl in the world improving your material conditions means increasing your assets, thereby increasing your autonomy and security. it's true that in an idealized leftist world there would be sufficient safety nets that you could do anything and have your material needs met. but in our world you need to make more money, accumulate assets, 'be your own boss,' etc. these things are as i think you guys agree incompatible with left-wing econ. (not inherently - i know wealthy leftists - but at least in a phenomenological sense.)

People know what the academic job market is like? You don't become a tenured postmodern neo-Marxist without being ambitious, driven, self-motivated, hard-working, etc!

But I don't think yr average confused Peterson acolyte is super angling for that place in the corporate boardroom. xpost

not the corporate boardroom but owning their own company? absolutely imo.

somewhere along this line of "what is self-improvement?" or "what is the good life?" is the fault-line i think where the impossibilty of persuading the other side that they are wrong and you are right thru rational discourse is situated and other forms of conflict begin

yeah the "personal responsibility" concept has very different meanings across the political spectrum, for one

"you are being held down by capitalism" doesn't lend itself obviously to many courses of action, i mean maybe throwing rocks through Starbucks windows but idk if that helps anyone very much.

it helps whatever news outlet is reporting on said aimless looting. it also helps the performative activist look cool to his friends. of course the most promoted ways to "fight back" are the least effective, most sensational, most marketable.

aside from that there are many courses of action. re-using products instead of throwing them out after one use. mending clothes instead of buying new ones. holding oneself accountable for consumption habits. all of this makes a difference and all of it can be personal day-to-day actions.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Afeq40qJL._SY450_.jpg

not the corporate boardroom but owning their own company? absolutely imo.

I dunno, I think the ills that Peterson claims to have solutions for are as much or more spiritual and psychological as material - I mean you yourself included meeting a significant other in a list of objectives our hypothetical person may aspire to, reducing it all to "they want a better job" seems reductive.

iow it's true that certain individual characteristics (ambition, hustle, hunger, intelligence, determination) do make an actual difference in one's personal success. and i think it's true that you can work on these attributes in yourself (tho i doubt that most "self-help" can help you do it, even tho what it requires is helping yourself - or being helped by a mentor). i just don't see that the left has an interest in this beyond improving yourself for the sake of making more successful political interventions and making a more egalitarian society. but ppl are mostly selfish and where they aren't selfish it is still in an immediate/direct sense - they want to help ppl they know and like not the whole population of people (generally speaking). and this is also where i think self-help stuff does intersect w/ right-wing politics in that right-wing politics emphasize the importance of the individual in outcomes. such a perspective might not be as ideologically coherent ultimately (and lacks compassion on an individual level) but it offers an actual route to improving your material conditions and i think that's appealing. and once you accept that you can improve your life then what is with all those people who can't or don't? obviously they're lazy, or stupid, or etc. again it doesn't have to be this way you can be ambitious and hungry and work hard and take responsibility and also have compassion for those with material conditions and background and neural dispositions don't allow them to make similar changes.

Idk I get the sense a lot of self-help material is designed to make you think you were fine all along.

xp

ultimately you're talking about which is the more appealing narrative rather than arguing for which is objectively the best route to feeling happier or more secure or more fulfilled as a person, is that right?

because if that's true i agree, appeals to our own personal efficacy are more inspiring. i don't think i believe in those narratives's underpinning assumptions so much.

no i'm saying that the only way to improve your quality of life in a capitalist society (where the human body is the commodity) is by improving the condition of the commodity. learn a new skill, improve your physical appearance, smooth out the rough bits of your personality. idk if it's the route to making yourself happy but it's the route towards succeeding in this world we've built. and that the "personal responsibility" narrative is more likely to lead to these improvements whereas the structural arguments might ultimately lead to material improvements but it's not really meant to slot into the cravings of capitalism. nb what i'm not saying is that any of this is a /good/ thing or something we should celebrate. just that it's a rational thing if you're living in the US.

I dunno, I think the ills that Peterson claims to have solutions for are as much or more spiritual and psychological as material - I mean you yourself included meeting a significant other in a list of objectives our hypothetical person may aspire to, reducing it all to "they want a better job" seems reductive.

The symptoms may be spiritual/psychological but the causes are mostly material imo. They know they're not going to get to grow up to be alpha breadwinners.

lol the left is absolutely occupied with ensuring people's metarial needs are met.

obviously the best way to succeed is to be born into a lot of money but you can't really self-help your way into that. but maybe you can self-help your kids into that condition.

lol the left is absolutely occupied with ensuring people's metarial needs are met.

i think maybe you're not tracking this discussion

what we're saying is that if you have a lot of assumptions that a socialist would reject, it doesn't leave a lot of room for socialism

lol the left is absolutely occupied with ensuring people's metarial needs are met.

Yes, but via collective struggle, not individual self-improvement. It's definitely not as easy a sell. xps yeah we're all in agreement on this I think