basically if you want to improve the conditions of your personal and immediate life the left has very little to say to you
― Mordy, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:18 (six years ago) link
and those that do have something to say might be very very wrong...but i agree that we're almost compelled to behave as if personally improvement is always possible and effective
― Cambridge Metallica (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:19 (six years ago) link
"compelled" not by The Bad Guys but by our cognitive processes whether they're innate or learned
idk personally I found being able to identify structural forces behind the dismal and depressing events and forces in life to be quite liberating but I guess that's not what everyone experiences
― Simon H., Friday, 23 March 2018 14:20 (six years ago) link
having said that, people have often improved the conditions of their personal and immediate lives through collective action and struggle, just not at the macro levels so much
― Cambridge Metallica (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:21 (six years ago) link
Perhaps the left out to eschew non-compatibilism (absolute determinism) for compatibilism (free will and determinism's uneasy truce).
― pomenitul, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:21 (six years ago) link
liberating in what sense? like it lets you off the hook or helps you stop blaming yourself okay, but it doesn't help you figure out how to get a better job, negotiate a better wage, meet an appealing significant other, etc. xxp
― Mordy, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:21 (six years ago) link
I don't really see how right-wing politics helps you do those things, either, Mordy.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:22 (six years ago) link
it's a bit much imo to ask ppl who want to earn a higher income to dedicate themselves to collective action and struggle maybe for many years without any results with the hope that maybe one day material conditions will improve. it may be the only way to actually *fix* things but on a personal individualized atomistic level it seems v unsatisfying to me.
― Mordy, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:22 (six years ago) link
i thought we're talking about self-help gurus? xp
take initiative. have confidence. work on your mind. work on your body. smooth out the rough edges of your personality. stop blaming yourself. etc. i mean these are trite but ppl use these kinds of banalities to make material improvements (sometimes). or at least they promise as much. "you are being held down by capitalism" doesn't lend itself obviously to many courses of action, i mean maybe throwing rocks through Starbucks windows but idk if that helps anyone very much.
― Mordy, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:24 (six years ago) link
what i'm thinking about Mordy is union-type actions against specific employers, or community activist groups taking on local issues - far easier to achieve an outcome than to imagine overthrowing the machinery of capitalism
― Cambridge Metallica (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:24 (six years ago) link
Long history of 'the left' being all about personal self-improvement, self-education, as well as strong links to temperance movements and such. Alongside structural critique.
― Google lobster hierarchies (Bananaman Begins), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:25 (six years ago) link
you can improve your min wage through a union-type action (tho less and less likely in 2018 that such a thing will succeed) but even that has a cap on what you can do. if you aspire to more - like becoming management yourself, or accumulating capital, aka the American dream, collective action is not sufficient.
― Mordy, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:26 (six years ago) link
and it's as likely that this kind of local engagement might lead you to other benefits - friendship groups, significant others, education etc - as an atomistic will to self-improvement.
― Cambridge Metallica (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:26 (six years ago) link
if you aspire to becoming management or accumulating capital i agree, i personally don't have much to say to you or offer you :D
― Cambridge Metallica (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:27 (six years ago) link
Oh, well, then I'm very confused about what we're discussing. I thought pomenitul was saying that the political left doesn't reach the kinds of guys who are being motivated by Peterson's political activism (which I'm not sure is entirely true). if we're talking about self-help gurus, I don't think they're necessarily left-wing or right-wing. I should probably take personal responsibility and focus on work.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:27 (six years ago) link
if you aspire to more - like becoming management yourself, or accumulating capital, aka the American dream
...then yeah the left was never going to appeal to you!
― Simon H., Friday, 23 March 2018 14:27 (six years ago) link
Haha yeah I guess there's some cultural crosstalk here on what we view as "improving your conditions".
― Daniel_Rf, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:28 (six years ago) link
Yeah, none of these things are essentially left-wing or right-wing.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:28 (six years ago) link
But I don't think yr average confused Peterson acolyte is super angling for that place in the corporate boardroom. xpost
― Daniel_Rf, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:29 (six years ago) link
yeah, a lot of my leftie friends growing up were consummate fuck-ups who couldn't get their own shit together who just happened to have brilliant political minds.
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:29 (six years ago) link
i think for most ppl in the world improving your material conditions means increasing your assets, thereby increasing your autonomy and security. it's true that in an idealized leftist world there would be sufficient safety nets that you could do anything and have your material needs met. but in our world you need to make more money, accumulate assets, 'be your own boss,' etc. these things are as i think you guys agree incompatible with left-wing econ. (not inherently - i know wealthy leftists - but at least in a phenomenological sense.)
― Mordy, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:30 (six years ago) link
People know what the academic job market is like? You don't become a tenured postmodern neo-Marxist without being ambitious, driven, self-motivated, hard-working, etc!
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:30 (six years ago) link
not the corporate boardroom but owning their own company? absolutely imo.
somewhere along this line of "what is self-improvement?" or "what is the good life?" is the fault-line i think where the impossibilty of persuading the other side that they are wrong and you are right thru rational discourse is situated and other forms of conflict begin
― Cambridge Metallica (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:30 (six years ago) link
yeah the "personal responsibility" concept has very different meanings across the political spectrum, for one
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:31 (six years ago) link
"you are being held down by capitalism" doesn't lend itself obviously to many courses of action, i mean maybe throwing rocks through Starbucks windows but idk if that helps anyone very much.
it helps whatever news outlet is reporting on said aimless looting. it also helps the performative activist look cool to his friends. of course the most promoted ways to "fight back" are the least effective, most sensational, most marketable.
aside from that there are many courses of action. re-using products instead of throwing them out after one use. mending clothes instead of buying new ones. holding oneself accountable for consumption habits. all of this makes a difference and all of it can be personal day-to-day actions.
― Hazy Maze Cave (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:34 (six years ago) link
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Afeq40qJL._SY450_.jpg
― Cambridge Metallica (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:35 (six years ago) link
I dunno, I think the ills that Peterson claims to have solutions for are as much or more spiritual and psychological as material - I mean you yourself included meeting a significant other in a list of objectives our hypothetical person may aspire to, reducing it all to "they want a better job" seems reductive.
― Daniel_Rf, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:36 (six years ago) link
iow it's true that certain individual characteristics (ambition, hustle, hunger, intelligence, determination) do make an actual difference in one's personal success. and i think it's true that you can work on these attributes in yourself (tho i doubt that most "self-help" can help you do it, even tho what it requires is helping yourself - or being helped by a mentor). i just don't see that the left has an interest in this beyond improving yourself for the sake of making more successful political interventions and making a more egalitarian society. but ppl are mostly selfish and where they aren't selfish it is still in an immediate/direct sense - they want to help ppl they know and like not the whole population of people (generally speaking). and this is also where i think self-help stuff does intersect w/ right-wing politics in that right-wing politics emphasize the importance of the individual in outcomes. such a perspective might not be as ideologically coherent ultimately (and lacks compassion on an individual level) but it offers an actual route to improving your material conditions and i think that's appealing. and once you accept that you can improve your life then what is with all those people who can't or don't? obviously they're lazy, or stupid, or etc. again it doesn't have to be this way you can be ambitious and hungry and work hard and take responsibility and also have compassion for those with material conditions and background and neural dispositions don't allow them to make similar changes.
― Mordy, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:37 (six years ago) link
Idk I get the sense a lot of self-help material is designed to make you think you were fine all along.
― valorous wokelord (silby), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:39 (six years ago) link
xp
ultimately you're talking about which is the more appealing narrative rather than arguing for which is objectively the best route to feeling happier or more secure or more fulfilled as a person, is that right?
― Cambridge Metallica (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:40 (six years ago) link
because if that's true i agree, appeals to our own personal efficacy are more inspiring. i don't think i believe in those narratives's underpinning assumptions so much.
― Cambridge Metallica (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:42 (six years ago) link
no i'm saying that the only way to improve your quality of life in a capitalist society (where the human body is the commodity) is by improving the condition of the commodity. learn a new skill, improve your physical appearance, smooth out the rough bits of your personality. idk if it's the route to making yourself happy but it's the route towards succeeding in this world we've built. and that the "personal responsibility" narrative is more likely to lead to these improvements whereas the structural arguments might ultimately lead to material improvements but it's not really meant to slot into the cravings of capitalism. nb what i'm not saying is that any of this is a /good/ thing or something we should celebrate. just that it's a rational thing if you're living in the US.
― Mordy, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:44 (six years ago) link
The symptoms may be spiritual/psychological but the causes are mostly material imo. They know they're not going to get to grow up to be alpha breadwinners.
― Simon H., Friday, 23 March 2018 14:44 (six years ago) link
lol the left is absolutely occupied with ensuring people's metarial needs are met.
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:45 (six years ago) link
obviously the best way to succeed is to be born into a lot of money but you can't really self-help your way into that. but maybe you can self-help your kids into that condition.
― Mordy, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:45 (six years ago) link
i think maybe you're not tracking this discussion
what we're saying is that if you have a lot of assumptions that a socialist would reject, it doesn't leave a lot of room for socialism
― ogmor, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:46 (six years ago) link
Yes, but via collective struggle, not individual self-improvement. It's definitely not as easy a sell. xps yeah we're all in agreement on this I think
― Simon H., Friday, 23 March 2018 14:46 (six years ago) link
Serious question: why is the left unable to reach out to the types of dudes who fall for JP's drivel?
― pomenitul, 23. marts 2018 15:14 (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Because bigotry is one hell of a drug. Let's not kid ourselves it's any more complicated than that, really.
― Frederik B, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:47 (six years ago) link
I 100% think that this is what's behind most of the disaffected young men that we think of when we have these discussions, I just feel like Peterson fans are a variant on that model for whom it doesn't hold true as much. The obsession with Jung and Disney is telling in this regard.
― Daniel_Rf, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:49 (six years ago) link
That just begs the question, though.
― pomenitul, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:49 (six years ago) link
fred you really believe that bigotry is itself the impetus and has nothing to do w/ other material conditions? like "antisemitism is the socialism of fools" doesn't resonate with your experience at all? you think the two things are totally unrelated? i get the impression you do but that seems v simplistic to me (and also extremely pessimistic about what any kind of left-wing politics can achieve).
― Mordy, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:49 (six years ago) link
Mordy - No I read the last 50 posts and I'm happy with what I've just posted
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:49 (six years ago) link
no i'm saying that the only way to improve your quality of life in a capitalist society...
ok i have qualms about "only way" - maybe would replace it with "way over which you have the most personal influence" (assuming some kind of free will etc.) and of course it doesn't guarantee quality of life improvements, even materially, never mind mentally or spiritually. even without explicitly espousing a leftist critique of our societies as they exist today i think a structural analysis would have to allow for the huge influence of uncontrollable forces, from luck and "the economy" to who knows what else?
― Cambridge Metallica (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 March 2018 14:49 (six years ago) link
The left is definitely able to reach out to a ton of disaffected youth these days. See a billion think pieces about how identity politics are ruining academia. Or your local Bernie Sanders rally.
― Frederik B, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:49 (six years ago) link
of course it doesn't guarantee quality of life improvements, even materially, never mind mentally or spiritually.
nothing is guaranteed but even the left today concedes that self-help like going to college should be made available to everyone so obv we think that it matters
― Mordy, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:51 (six years ago) link
you can improve your min wage through a union-type action (tho less and less likely in 2018 that such a thing will succeed) but even that has a cap on what you can do. if you aspire to more - like becoming management yourself, or accumulating capital, aka the American dream, collective action is not sufficient.― Mordy, Friday, 23 March 2018 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Mordy, Friday, 23 March 2018 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Many could take part in collective action, gain confidence through that and gain new skills in organising etc.
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 23 March 2018 14:51 (six years ago) link