the day after the deadline: can the union survive brexit and other deep questions

OTM x 1000

He needs to kick the crank faction into touch, it’s way overdue.

And someone needs to have a serious talk to him because he really, really doesn’t get it and this is incredibly hurtful and just way past not good enough.

until they can move beyond Palestine good/Israel bad as a shibboleth then this shit will riddle the party and the broader Left

Ugh, I remember that mural and the controversy around it, thought it was gross and noted that ‘bankers’ references are anti-Semitic dog whistle shit to that section of the population keeping dogs on strings.

Owen Smith is such a dick; really looking forward to three days of FBPEs denouncing Corbyn for sacking a shadow frontbencher who undermined the entire shadow cabinet (which never results in anything other than a sacking) and probably just fucked up Labour’s entire Northern Ireland strategy, too.

Peter Hain has referred to Smith's sacking as a "Stalinist Purge". If he's never read any Kotkin, Conquest or Fitzpatrick or indeed any Soviet history at all, he should refrain from such nonsense and stfu. It is simply just the sacking of a complete bellend, who was undermining the party and the authority of the leader.

Hain may not know his Soviet history but he does know his bellends

come to think of it, he shd know a fair bit about purges too, the Tory cunt

Considering that I've seen James Franco getting airbrushed from "Vanity Fair" described as stalinism recently, I fear ol' Joe's stock has plummeted so far down that any punter can lay a claim.

just thinking of Stalinist purges is making me want to photoshop Micheal Gove's head onto that famous pic of Yezhov next to Soso!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Voroshilov%2C_Molotov%2C_Stalin%2C_with_Nikolai_Yezhov.jpg/330px-Voroshilov%2C_Molotov%2C_Stalin%2C_with_Nikolai_Yezhov.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/The_Commissar_Vanishes_2.jpg/330px-The_Commissar_Vanishes_2.jpg

Have just seen a bunch of people allowing another liberal type to assert that Corbyn is more interested in getting the (larger) Muslim vote than the Jewish vote, and that’s why he is the way he is. Coming from a place where a lot of Jewish people sent the first Muslim to Congress, and being the sort of person that’s been calling out anti-Semitism since childhood, even to close relatives, I have had it with these arses who only notice Jewish people when they need to beat up on a politician on the left of them.

Considering that I've seen James Franco getting airbrushed from "Vanity Fair" described as stalinism recently,

show me the lie tho

Vanity Fair's latest cover story on how we should move forward w/ the mass collectivisation of agriculture was a surprise, I'll admit.

lol!

Breaking: Just issued via Bindmans, an extraordinary attack on Theresa May’s political secretary Stephen Parkinson by Shahmir Sanni.

Sanni accuses Parkinson of outing him as gay in a statement released on Dominic Cummings website earlier today pic.twitter.com/5Du30ZJgu9

— Sam Coates Times (@SamCoatesTimes) March 23, 2018

"attack on...Stephen Parkinson"

ooooookay

Stalinist denunciation.

yeah I foolishly commented on that story before reading up on it - much more comfortable with corbyn dismissing that opportunistic dweeb smith now

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/if-corbyn-wins-emigrating-to-israel-is-my-clear-escape-route/

Possibly the best reason ever to vote Labour.

I hope they've got some prime real estate somewhere on the West Bank preferably, reserved for the little scrote!

I reckon if Israeli immigration did a thorough background check, they might not even accept him.

why not Syria Toby? he'll never find you there

trying to game the Brexit referendum is just terrible politics and they have to keep being told

Long post coming up with the caveat that I think Owen Smith is a slimy fuck with some toxic opinions whose motivations are unlikely to be just about Brexit here. There isn't actually anything objectionable in the article itself - it's less about gaming the referendum result and more about acknowledging that public opinion can and will change and if you think it's going to be completely disastrous for the country (especially in poorer Leave-voting areas) then you have a duty and a right to keep campaigning for it. And taking a pro-Brexit position is probably incompatible with being Northern Ireland Secretary, given the obvious dangers and the fact that NI overwhelmingly voted Remain.

The problem is that public opinion hasn't changed enough. Most polling indicates that "stop Brexit" is a minority position once you've taken into account the committed Leavers plus the "I voted Remain but let's accept the will of the people and get on with it" crew. That second category is mushy obviously and most of it would probably back Remain again but you wouldn't bet the house (or more) on it. On the other hand, if Corbyn proved anything in 2017 it's that "people won't vote for that" could well be wrong, you just don't know until you give them the option.

Thing is I just don't think that the "stop Brexit" crew have really thought through the consequences of a second referendum with the same result. That would be it, it would be double-stamped, Britain would be out of the EU and it would be very difficult to see any way back. As things stand, if demographic changes (a euphemistic way of saying 'Brexiters dying off') continue then it's pretty easy to foresee a scenario in which Britain demands to return to the EU after a decade or so. This is especially the case when you imagine the kinds of well-funded Return campaigns that will be set up, and the likelihood of Brexit leading to economic disaster.

Another obstacle is Labour MPs in Leave-voting areas, many of whom are worried about their seats and aren't exactly fans of Corbyn in any case. They are likely to be a bigger obstacle than Corbyn's personal Euroscepticism (although I maintain that he doesn't really seem to care much about the issue one way or the other). The fact that the Conservative Party themselves, even the Remainy bits, are also an obstacle should go without saying. Obviously there's the rage of the hardened Brexiters (but fuck those guys) and the bigger issue of a betrayal narrative. If Remain wins by a narrow margin, what's to stop furious demands for a third referendum? It would go on and on.

Agreed with xyzzz that the row over the mural is worse and more significant. The fact that it'll be used against him by internal opponents doesn't and shouldn't matter (stopped clocks and all that). That Corbyn himself is antisemitic I very much doubt but some of the people he's associated with clearly are (in a largely unacknowledged way, I suspect) and as others have said he needs to jettison them. Either he didn't look closely enough at the mural, which isn't great for an elected representative, or he's including overt antisemitism within the grounds of free speech, which is equally problematic. I doubt the building owners were exactly thrilled to have it on their wall either.

What this all adds up to is probably Corbyn's Achilles heal, too much tolerance and loyalty to people he considers to be on his side, (even when they're crazy bigots and hugely damaging by association), combined with a naive bluntness in the way he deals with internal opponents. I suppose it's the difference between healthy and unhealthy dissent - I'm perfectly willing to believe there's something unhealthy going on with Owen Smith - but a public dressing down might have been better than a sacking at this point. Not that Smith is a big enough beast to make a martyr of course.

I think every poster on here (myself included) has made a "I don't think Corbyn himself is an anti-semite" disclaimer, and the thing is, whether he is in his heart shouldn't really matter: enabling anti-semitic propaganda and tolerating anti-semitic discourse does damage regardless of what he himself thinks about the issue.

Newspapers that splashed George Soros conspiracy theories all over their front page also going big on this can fuck off though.

your 2nd, 3rd and 4th paragraphs there Matt sum up most of the reasons why i think campaigning for another referendum is terrible politics at the moment

I think if a 2nd ref was either a remain win or a loss, both scenarios would be bad for different reasons. It is just a complete no-win bollox of an idea.

This is beside the point I suppose but I'm shocked that mural was painted in London nearly six years ago - and that most of us seem to only be hearing about it now.

yeah erm.. good work by Corbyn to selflessly highlight this outrage by sarcastically defending it.

Newspapers that splashed George Soros conspiracy theories all over their front page also going big on this can fuck off though.

Nick Timothy:

I can say categorically there is no way the Tory Parliamentary Party would let their leader ever get away with justifying or defending racism. This has nothing to do with elections and everything to do with a simple moral call. Do you think his actions were acceptable?

— Nick Timothy (@NickJTimothy) March 23, 2018

well Johnson isn't leader tbf

there was a quite funny bit on last night's Any Questions when Suella Fernandes said something like:"As a Conservative I stand for equality and equal chances for all in society.." to a spontaneous outburst of crowd laughter, similar to when Rudd said:"judge us on our record..".

Xp Nick Timothy wrote the Soros article, and spent the day retweeting people saying he was a good friend to the Jewish community.

xp she’s clearly never posted an article on ConservativeHome about what the Conservatives can do to attract BAME voters. Comments are near-uniformly ugly and increasingly so over time.

This is quite funny/painful. https://twitter.com/hashtag/ToryCanvass?src=tren

jesus god almighty

Got my picture with @michaelgove I can die happy!! #ToryCanvass #TeamTory pic.twitter.com/bt7ha66BKg

— Cameron Bradbury (@PrinceCameron29) March 21, 2018

i think it really speaks to the appeal of the Tory party that all these working class kids are so excited to have their picture took with their heroes

cursed account

https://i.imgur.com/hyCJ0CJ.png

the saddest yaaaaaas

@PrinceCameron29!

If you click on the hashtag #MaysGays it's 99% him.

harry cole has just outed theresa may

A late night statement from campaigning lawyers Bindmans - who refused to talk to the Sun last night - said the gentleman in question was not out. But claims have been met with incredulity in No10. Especially given he was at their Pride party with the PM: pic.twitter.com/GEIhSd7cZM

— Harry Cole (@MrHarryCole) March 24, 2018

Have you seen Corbyn's statement this week on the mural, Matt? I'm not saying it will close the matter, but it does rework your options there.

A second referendum isn't "the same referendum again", of course - a lot of the hell we're in is due to the freedom of various oneiromancers to say that clearly what people were voting for was... which is due to the terrible question the first time.

I don't think you can do it without more than one option and some kind of transferred vote, which is to say that I don't think you can do it.

second statement still wasn’t strong enough imo. he should have apologised

I am perplexed as to why the referendum wasn’t covered by the same strict broadcasting codes as general elections and have repeatedly thought that the outcome might’ve been VERY different had that been the case.

There is no doubt in my mind that: 1) Corbyn is not antisemitic and 2) that he saw and yet did also overlook the antisemitism in the picture, in the relative privacy of posting a comment from his home. After all this is a guy who was extra tight on Russia and was extremely careful in his statements, and to not go along with the mob.

And also 3) that he is good at listening to members/ppl on his side who aren't happy and that in time he will see this as an issue that *is* a problem on the left (as on all sides), as important as racism - and that care and attention will be paid to it. I get the feeling it is but maybe not to the extent as anti-racism, for example.

Very much struggling to care about Owen Smith/Brexit.

I agree with the people saying that Corbyn seems to just not get it at some fundamental level wrt anti-semitism. I'd like to think he's capable of evolution but two statements put out in response to this incident aren't encouraging. The whole hoo-hah following Ken Livingstone's Hitler comments is nearly two years ago now, it's not like Corbyn hasn't had time to get up to speed.

that he is good at listening to members/ppl on his side who aren't happy and that in time he will see this as an issue that *is* a problem on the left

I think there are a depressing number of people on his side and in his inner circle who also don't get it, though. And one of Corbyn's most pronounced traits seems to be *not* changing his mind on stuff, even when received wisdom is clearly against him (which is an admirable thing in many situations obv, but not this one)

A lot of the people saying Corbyn 'just does not get it' are racist cnuts though. Boris Johnson for example. So it's difficult.