the day after the deadline: can the union survive brexit and other deep questions

The statement from Nokes published last night.: https://homeofficemedia.blog.gov.uk/2018/04/15/immigration-minister-op-ed-in-the-voice/

This issue came to light because measures introduced in recent years to make sure only those with a legal right to live here can access things like NHS treatment and rented accommodation, meaning people must now be able to prove their status.

Having not previously needed documentation they have now found themselves without any way of proving their status today.

All that these people require is a simple card which is available from the Home Office.

So today I am encouraging anyone who is concerned that they are not currently able to prove their status to apply.

I know that establishing status after so many years may be difficult for some people but we will do everything we can to assist them.

We will handle every case with sensitivity and will help people understand what is required and help them gather the information they need.

People don’t need formal records. Any information that people can provide, from schools they attended to places of work, family or former addresses will help build this picture.

Not clear how this process works at all. You've lived here however many years, you are ill and seek NHS treatment, at some point your name is given to them...a database check confirms residential status? So why the card?

Residential status doesn’t confer right to treatment aiui. Anyone who has been resident in the UK since 1971 will have a right to treatment, anyone who has been resident here since 1972 without formal leave to remain will not - and would be de facto considered an illegal immigrant. The NHS will not know that.

That 1971 / 1972 division is the crux of this. If you can not prove you have been in the UK every single year since 1971 uninterrupted, you have no legal status. The people who were ‘incorrectly deported ‘ were probably here since before 71 but just couldn’t prove it, or couldn’t document that they had not gone to the Caribbean for a year at any point, etc.

probably here since before 71 but just couldn’t prove it

not surprising since the burden of proof they were required to produce was up to four pieces of documentary evidence for every year they spent in the uk

Nightmarish condition, I think nearly everybody would struggle to provide one piece of evidence for each year, never mind four.

i'd be deported under those conditions for sure - who the fuck has literally 100+ of pieces of proof of citizenship to hand covering decades? it's absolutely a pretext to deport innocent people

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Da60sHvW0Acxe2T.jpg

Gapes has apparently won the Hilary Benn award for thundering oratory wind that makes Tories clap very loudly today.

BBC still seems to be going with "some of generation Windrush have been threatened with deportation" so maybe they're not keeping up with this thread

apparently amber rudd said in parliament they weren’t sure anyone had in fact been wrongly deported (?!, great work everyone) so presumably the bbc are just giving the government the considerable benefit of the doubt

i'm sure it's just good journalism

good journalism/craven toadying, what’s the difference really when it’s just british citizens being bundled off back to a country they haven’t seen in 50 years, nbd

They are black though, so not that British.

Enoch Powell... Racist or nationalist? Loyal ally or ruthless opportunist? The most influential man in post-war politics? Enoch at 100 is a critical reassessment of Enoch Powell's legacy by some of the leading political figures and writers of the current age. Originally released in the year of Enoch's centenary, the contributions, from writers including Iain Duncan Smith, Frank Field, Simon Heffer, Andrew Roberts, Margaret Mountford and Roger Scruton, explore the enigma of a man who... Filled the House of Commons chamber during his speeches, and turned crowds away for lack of room when he spoke publicly

Racist or nationalist?

or?

If I wanted to commit suicide in the really painful manner of inducing an aneurysm I would read Scruton's contribution to that volume and expire in apoplexy

I'm sortof amazed that it's taken so long for this to turn into a *scandal.* it's been a fucking scandal since it was first reported, which seems to be quite a while ago now.

Anyone who has been resident in the UK since 1971 will have a right to treatment, anyone who has been resident here since 1972 without formal leave to remain will not - and would be de facto considered an illegal immigrant.

What's the status of Ugandan Asians expelled by Amin in 1972? Or is that a whole other clusterfuck still to come?

There's probably a substantial core of Hard Brexiters who value and prioritise Commonwealth immigration over post-enlargement EU immigration in any case which explains why this is drawing condemnation from across the political spectrum. (cf Jacob Rees-Mogg parping up to attack the government today, also the Gurkhas campaign from a decade or so ago).

the whole thing's given extra heinousness by the government's bleating about how trading with our vitally important partners in the commonwealth will be the making of us post-brexit

extremely good country

Apparently, my use of this pic is 'important news'. Yes, UK goes to war without UN approval or even parliamentary debate. But the most important news is what pics I use in a tweet. Pathetic.

— Diane Abbott (@HackneyAbbott) April 16, 2018

uh, posting that pic is, shall we say, not a great look. especially coming in the wake of all the anti-semitism scandal stuff (it's a photoshop of an israeli plane bombing civilians in Tehran).

i mean she's right that it's small fry compared to what the government are up to but yeah check your sources more carefully before you share on social media ffs

Ugandan Asians had a specific law in 1972 allowing them to settle. I think they were given formal citizenship at the time. Xps

saw that DA tweet this morning and thought it was odd she'd even added a pic at all (even more so one which was so obviously photoshopped). didn't clock the livery and/or city until digging into the comments under that second tweet. agreed it's na-particularly-gl

Frank Field's contribution to that 'Enoch at 100' book can be read here, for anyone who's interested: https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2012/06/enoch-powell-as-a-parliamentarian/

What results did Enoch want from this speech? If it was to awaken the country’s political elite to the dangers of sustained largescale immigration and to debate the consequences, then it must rank as Enoch’s greatest failure. At a stroke he made the subject of immigration a no-go area for elected politicians. I only felt safe in trespassing onto this territory once the mass of immigration from eastern European countries reached our shores, when the issue was no longer one of colour.

Why was it then that I never raised ‘Rivers of Blood’ with Enoch? The simple truth is that I dared not confront Enoch on this issue as I felt that it was not only his biggest, but almost the only major political error he committed. The outcome of that speech is the stuff of which great Greek tragedies are made. Enoch’s talents had destined him for a commanding position in British politics. The ‘Rivers of Blood’ speech gave him a commanding position among voters, as Enoch was expressing their fears. But his political gang, who were, under Heath, only too pleased to strip him of any leadership potential, closed ranks against him. If I am right, this great mistake over the speech must have caused Enoch huge and profound regret and I never wanted to stray uninvited into this national and personal tragedy.

The simple truth is that I dared not confront Enoch on this issue as I felt that it was not only his biggest, but almost the only major political error he committed.

except he continued to make similar speeches throughout the rest of his political life

also he mentored Thatcher and was arguably the architect of the Tories' adoption of monetarist economics but no big whoop eh Frank?

Amber "no Roswell" Rudd and Esther "stain on humanity" McVey have really set the bar very shockingly low today, but they are confirmed, card carrying scum of the earth after all. As for Frank Field, this dour stayer needs to go on account that he's a horrible og legitimate concernist, and like that other Labour safe seat Member of Parliament Barry Sheerman, the cunt loves this game so much he has absolutely no plans of ever dying, unlike many of his constituents. Shitheads like Field in the company of Scrotum, IDS, Simon fucking Heffer all doing tobacco enema on the Enoch corpse doesn't reflect well on Labour at all. Why is that cunt even still there?

rivers of blood and a field of shit

He is dead iirc

Could you imagine being a Labour voter of 2nd gen Caribbean/Asian origins, and listening to that cunt eulogising Powell on the radio and him almost fucking tearing up - it's just so fucking emotional for him.

I saw this funny clip of some Irish immigrant guy in the early 60's saying "as an immigrant population here, we'd just be playing a card against ourselves by being racist toward Caribbean immigrants". My dad never got that memo!

There's probably a substantial core of Hard Brexiters who value and prioritise Commonwealth immigration over post-enlargement EU immigration

They might well value Indian GPs and the occasional Nigerian barrister, I wonder what they would think of the people who would be most likely to come, most of whom would come from Muslim majority countries like Bangladesh and Pakistan.

Lots of Pakistani war criminal doctors and academics who played an active part in the '71 genocide in Bangladesh ended up getting safe haven in the UK. Which immigrants are more safer than others is a funny old game, well not really - it's usually connected to wealth.

if we're taking enoch powell's views seriously how about his opposition to nuclear weapons

that's the kind of offensive outdated nonsense that we ought to ignore

Amber "no Roswell" Rudd

:-)

seen a few ppl touting the fact that lammy voted for the 2002 nationality, immigration and asylum bill as evidence of his corrupted, hypocritical nature &c. I've no interest in the furious purism of the margins but it's interesting how things and people have changed, makes me wonder what the discussion was like then

Do these how they vote sites explain which bills were subject to a three line whip? I think his record on opposing gentrification is weak as well. He seems ok at times does Lammy, is good at the emotive oratory side of the game, but ultimately a professional politician, no less imo. But loads of MP's have ropy voting records. I heard someone pointing out to Gardiner the other day that he voted for Iraq. I suppose it just highlights how uniquely consistent MP's like Corbyn + McDonnell are so completely rare.

Yes, Lammy blows hot and cold, otm about his being good at emotive oratory, less convincing in other areas.

see the remainer lot (David Allen Green) tying this to Brexit

We are the remainer lot, you turnip.

Its not the same issue, genius.

Are we? Haven't seen much support for a second referendum around here. xpost

Chris Williamson has appeared on RT now. This has to be the last straw and the fucking idiot needs sacking immediately.

It's the same people doing the same things for the same reasons. It's an indication that those of us who thought we were coming to somewhere we could set up home, will need to be looking over our shoulders for the foreseeable. And it's a hilarious reminder, at the start of the meeting of the Commonwealth Heads of State, that this government, and particularly the PM and former Home Secretary, don't give a shite about the position of the Commonwealth except also they will be our best trading partners.

I mean, if there's a particular article that seems bogus, throw it up here - all the comparisons / connections I've seen were spot-on.

Are we? Haven't seen much support for a second referendum around here. xpost

I don't always pay total attention, but "this will be a fucking disaster" seems to be a popular opinion here. I don't know that we all need the same solution to agree that.

Otherwise someone else might change it for you for the first time since 2015 and you get locked out. Annoying isn't it? Yes you may be paid a lot more than them but sometimes basic logic doesn't follow the money, it's priceless

— The Account Formerly Known As Wetherspoons (@jdwtwats) April 17, 2018

If there were any Cameron 15/Remain 16/Labour 17 voters who were wavering about Labour after the events of the past few weeks, the PM's handling of this has probably driven them pretty firmly away from the Tories for the foreseeable future.

Its not the same issue, genius.

The entire clusterfuck and the Hostile Environment policies that led to it are all part of the same snowballing anti-immigration sentiment that May is entirely in support of and was pretty much the #1 reason for Brexit (that and mythical sums of money for the NHS). Cameron was quite happy to stoke this shit up when it suited him as well. They can't be separated, especially as things are very likely get worse after Brexit.

I don't have trouble believing that the mentality that lead to brexit is the same one at issue here but I do think it's worth pointing out that the tories would be doing this even if brexit hadn't happened - and that in fact Theresa May had already been doing it at the Home Office.

I don't always pay total attention, but "this will be a fucking disaster" seems to be a popular opinion here. I don't know that we all need the same solution to agree that.

Yeah I think everyone agrees that it's a shambles and I'd wager most here voted against it (I couldn't, of course, being a EU citizen), but "remainer" at this juncture to me feels like it's referring specifically to people who are trying to stop brexit from happening and believe the process can be reversed - and maybe I'm projecting but it feels to me like most ppl on this thread believe that ship has sailed.

2nd Referendum, 2nd home, Season 2 of The Wire, 2nd amendment - all bad imo.

Season 2 of The Wire

mods pls delete this