Is the Guardian worse than it used to be?

Scottish Nationalists love to tell you their brand of nationalism is different because it's about escaping from Tory rule and into the arms of the SNP's socialist-leaning policies. And in a way, they're right, but at it's core, it's still about creating a divide between People Like Us and People Like Them. I hate nationalism because so many times in my life I've been a Them and not an Us and it's the worst. I hate that people think closing the border and protecting our own is a morally better position than having our 55 MPs in Parliament making it difficult for the Tory Government to easily enact all the cuts and policies they would like to.

assuming you know fine well that Scottish nationalist political groupings are less xenophobic and more open to immigration than the unionist parties in Scotland. And that the unionist parties, especially the tories, but also labour, are also nationalist parties in their own way. Tories being hugely jingoistic british nationalists, xenophobic, anti-irish and anti-refugee, and labour being in favour of leaving the single market and fucking over EU citizens in the UK.

On the other hand, Saturday's march features a giant banner from Siol Nan Gaidheal front and centre. An organisation started by one of the Settler Watch guys and formally expelled from the SNP umbrella by Gordon Wilson as "proto-fascists" but now seemingly on the good guys list because 'my enemy's enemy' and all that.

― Bimlo Horsewagon became Wheelbarrow Horseflesh (aldo), Tuesday, May 8, 2018 9:56 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

there might be merit in having physically assaulted the SNG activists and huckled them from the rally which would have been the alternative to them marching, but I'm sure you can see why that might have been a difficult option.

there were islamists marching in the anti-iraq war march in glasgow in 2003, i suppose anyone who was part of that should be tarred by that brush as well?

Saturday wasn't the first example of them still being part of 'team indy', they posed for photos with Salmond in 2014 for example and Sturgeon gave a thumbs up on Twitter to a photo of their banner this weekend. Phillipa Whiteford and Joanna Cherry both photographed with them in Glasgow Green after the march. They've been actively courted. Or there's Sonja Cameron, vetted in as a councillor in Stirling last year despite having been an active member of the SNLA and Settler Watch.

The party and their supporters aren't any different to any other party and supporters, and indulging in thoughts that they're any kind of special chosen people is just another shade of bigotry (as is 'we are all like this, you are all like that').

im not an SNP supporter, but "there are fringey loons among affiliated with this party" is something that can be said about all the major political parties in the uk. forgive me for the whatabouttery

also forgive the awful failure of english language that has just occurred with that last post

That's my point.

i say this as a non-Scot so if it's nonsense excuse me but it's struck me since before the referendum that there's a sizeable chunk of the Scottish electorate for who the "nationalist" bit of the SNP is the least important/attractive thing about them?

Then what is?

If it's EU membership, for example, the official position is to be part of the single market but not join without total reform of the CFP.

even before Brexit became a thing i'd've thought part of the USP was an escape from the endless cycle of Tory and Tory Labour governments that the UK looked locked into

i’ve voted snp in the past despite being at best agnostic about independence purely because they were the most leftwing party on the ballot at those points in time

the N stands for national not nationalist.

what's it going to take for snp-backing ilxors to vote labour

unmarked bills in a manila envelope and lots of em

pm me for my po box details

... but not Scottish money (xp)

well obv, i got knocked back from buying a fucking mr whippy the last time i was in london cuz i tried to pay with a clydesdale bank note

well obv, i got knocked back from buying a fucking mr whippy the last time i was in london cuz i tried to pay with a clydesdale bank note

twice

see fuckin ilx won't even let me post about scottish bank notes properly

melgibsoninbraveheart.jpg

obviously in the future the new nationalism will be based on voluntary communities of people who come together using the internet to create a state that oh wait

time for a newly-independent scotland to get on the blockchain and start mining scotcoins

what's it going to take for snp-backing ilxors to vote labour

― ogmor, Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:23 AM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

labour party to be less shit

i actually attempted to vote labour last election but didn't send my postal ballot in time - snp won handily in my constituency in any case. funnily enough i used to vote snp in the constituency when it was a safe labour seat. basically don't have me vote for you if you want to win.

Labour Party is less shit but I imagine the Scottish Labour Party still is.

... shit, that is. Or shite, if you prefer.

Trident is a problem for me i must admit.

I mean, the labour party has become much more democratic and leftwing, if independence isn't the be all and end all I don't see the appeal of the SNP

a lot of labour's policies are still bobbins and aren't better than the SNP's

also independence isn't the be all and end all but labour have never consistently polled ahead of these tories, meaning we're likely stuck with them another decade. we're tied into brexit, which we didn't vote for, and which labour, for political reasons, isn't opposing or facing in a robust manner.

we've spoken a bit about it elsewhere but the appeal of labour is the extent to which it is and could be more than a parliamentary party, and it's moving in a promising direction, it just seems deeply pessimistic to spurn the only realistic chance the country has had for a proper leftwing govt in my lifetime. if I had a convenient alternative political dream I cld fuck the rest of the country off to pursue I'd be tempted too, but as it is it reminds me of school when the girls wanted to go to an all-girls school to be rid of the shittiest boys and you're just left pulling that facial expression wishing them all the best

that ignores the fact that the uk is deeply structurally flawed, in that as a unitary state it is actually designed to benefit the south east of england and the rest is left to rot, quite deliberately.

(and there's no appetite for a real devo max/federalism type of situation)

the uk has no real end to deep structural flaws but I can't see a reason to be optimistic that devolution or independence would help address the most pernicious of them, it all just seems like different ways of trying to limit the number of people fucked over by tory southern england rather than offer a real change of power

I think the reputation of Glasgow’s Labour councillors probably helps the SNP out quite a lot.

... not just Glasgow btw.

it all just seems like different ways of trying to limit the number of people fucked over by tory southern england rather than offer a real change of power

Seems like that to me too.

ogmor, this is such a weird argument to me. what's in it for us lol?

i vote for the SNP because i hate the United Kingdom!

the labour party remains pretty shocking locally across much of the uk but the battles within the labour party feel v winnable and I don't see any other political project in the country to feel more optimistic about

brexit and everyone having to hedge their bets while the can is kicked and we wait for the first concrete disaster to manoeuvre around does really fuck things

Arguably the problems with labour's position on Brexit are rooted in the broader structural fuckedness of the UK, and a fully remain Labour doesn't seem likely to resolve that issue for Scotland at the moment

if independence isn't the be all and end all I don't see the appeal of the SNP

well, for starters:

Over the next two years, Scotland will move to set its own social security agenda with around £2.8bn annually of a Department of Work and Pensions budget devolved to a new Scottish agency, covering 11 benefit areas from disability living allowance to attendance allowance for the elderly and the infirm. It promises a more humane regime than England, with “dignity, fairness and respect” as the watchwords – and “welfare”, with its pejorative undertones, consigned to history. All that is before the impact of a new devolved income tax system, with an extremely modest income tax rise for the better off, is factored in to fill a gap left by a falling block grant from Westminster. It hit pay packets last month.

It headlined a commitment to create a publicly owned Scottish energy company by 2021. It will buy electricity and gas either wholesale or generated directly from national sources to give choice to people, “particularly those on low incomes”, according to the first minister.

All this came alongside a pledge to double spending on early years education to £840m annually by 2020 – “a commitment unmatched anywhere in the UK”, she proclaimed – as well as doubling free nursery provision for under-fives.

The IPPR notes that Sturgeon’s administration is committed to increasing NHS spending and protecting the budget of a beleaguered Police Scotland – a national force created in 2013 – whose record of achieving economies of scale has fallen well below expectations amid a series of controversies surrounding its operations and senior staff.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/07/scotland-lead-way-cradle-grave-care-uk-devolved-tax-increase

then there's the abolition of the bedroom tax in Scotland and the fact that every baby born in Scotland gets given a baby box.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scotland-39225542/what-s-inside-scotland-s-baby-boxes

there's some good stuff there sure, the energy company is particularly interesting (though the policing record seems sus, doesn't scotland have the worst stop&search record in the uk by a margin?), but that's fairly small (& easily reversible) stuff.

it's a question of ambition. independence will be a hard battle and, like brexit, take up a huge amount of attention, time and resources, and it should surely be for more than baby boxes and extra nursery provision. if you want to address the major long term structural issues in the country you need to tackle the dominant interests, and as far as I can see a democratic labour party is the only thing that has a shot at ending tory hegemony and having the power to implement major reform. an independent scotland would ofc be more susceptible to being bullied and played off other weaker nations by international capital, will still be vulnerable to being hobbled and thwarted by the tory-run country south of the border. as with the uk and europe post-brexit, you'll just have less of a say in what goes on. do you really want to give the tories an easier ride?

there's some insistence upthread that it's not an us and them thing, but then what's the plan for sunderland? how are you not just fucking off the majority of poor ppl in the uk to protect a small slice? I was pro independence in the ref bc the national situation looked absolutely hopeless and if someone could escape then good on them! no one thought the change in rules in the labour party would be big deal but it totally opened it up and a huge, democratic organised movement has flourished that is in the process of completely transforming the party and beyond. if we're just judging things as they stand without looking at how they're likely to change then much of the country would have little cause for optimism. the labour council in manchester have been shocking for years, someone I used to work with is on it and she backs dan jarvis ffs. scotland seems like the most interesting & politically crucial part of the uk atm, and a scottish labour movement could have a crucial influence on the rest of the uk and it just seems pessimistic and defensive to sack all that off, to declare the problem unsolvable and decide to insulate yourself against it instead of fighting it.

ironic that the quality of debate on this thread this week has been better than the usual level of the Graun

Esther McVey's idea of a baby box would be: some Richard Scarry illustrated story about why Huckle Cat jr must tell mummy not to birth them a third sibling (unless she gets raped), and a list of local abortion clinics.

see that's practical philanthropy

doesn't scotland have the worst stop&search record in the uk by a margin?

Stop & Search is a completely different kettle of fish in Scotland, where the police and the people they're stopping look the same, talk the same etc.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44658000/jpg/_44658036_fan_clash_ap226.jpg
"the people they're stopping look the same, talk the same etc"

"A'm aff tae stoap 'n' search ye richt noo ye doss fud"

that search is not gonna take long

I'm guessing they support the same team though.

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