Things you were shockingly old when you learned

SEE??

In breaking news for Elbridge T. Gerry, if everyone pronounces gerrymander as 'jerrymander', then they are pronouncing it correctly. It's a word, not a person, and you are being the worst kind of pedant.

For me the word where that comes into play is "forte" as in "basketweaving is my forte."

Its origin is from French, and refers to the strong point of a sword. There is no accent on it and it is supposed to be said "fort" (according to the worst kind of pedant).

If you say "for-tay," like the musical term for "loud" (which comes from Italian), you're technically wrong but everyone will know what you mean. But if you say it "fort" people will look at you funny (except for a few chance pedants).

As a consequence I avoid it in speech, preferring "strength" or "strong suit" or "specialty."

I prefer thang

I don't really think that's correct. The etymology is correct. The fact that the French word is one syllable is correct. But now literally no one would know what you mean if you said something was "your fort", so while it would be true to the etymology it's not really correct.

basketweaving is my foray

The best way to navigate "forte" is go with single-syllable pronunciation in heavily accented French, pause meaningfully, arch eyebrow.

p'tit con

Incredibly, my Apple dictionary does give "fôrt" as an acceptable pronunciation for "forte". I think if you're going to do that, though, you should go all the way and use a guttural "r" and proper French "o" sound.

Hadrian OTM, essentially.

on the French tip: that sunning-yourself chair is actually called a "chaise longue", pronounced like the English word "long". it just means "long chair".

How else do you pronounce it?

Going to admit btw that I had always assumed the "forte" in "spreading butter on toast is my forte" did come from the musical dynamic marking.

I always assumed Sobe was asian tea inspired because Sobe = Soba noodles in my mind.

I think the pronunciation of foreign words in the context of a different language comes down to the actual language you are speaking plus local dialect. If you're American speaking English, it's perfectly acceptable to say for-tay and chayz lounge.

fine but anyone who says “ninety-nine luft ballooooons” is ripe for a boot up the arse

(figuratively – i am not physically abusing anyone)

Yeah, that's a little different. I consider the other words mentioned to be English words derived from French. You aren't speaking French when you say forte in an English sentence. Luftballons is definitely not an English word, as evidenced by Nina saying "red balloons" in the English version.

The old department store chain Kresge didn't go out of business in the '60s like I thought, they just changed their name to Kmart.

Didnt know about the forte/fort thing but I usually say something silly like "in my wheelhouse" anyway like the ass I am.

chayz lounge.

no

Why not?

Luftballons is definitely not an English word, as evidenced by Nina saying "red balloons" in the English version.

my point is more the english-german-english construction which ignores the actual name of the song and is just lazy, like “the tour de fraaaance”

Yeah, it's wrong, but doesn't really raise my hackles. I'm much more sensitive to what I perceive (right or wrong) as "snooty" pronunciations.

xp

Apparently the English substitution of "lounge" dates back some 200 years, so it isn't exactly a modern bastardization.

then you get into that sociolinguistic bullshit of “well enough people get it wrong so it’s just official now”

I mean, that's often how languages work.

never heard anyone say "chaise lounge" before, must be American English? tbf it's not something I hear said very often.

The one that always got on my tits was once one Hell's Kitchen I heard them refer to a turbo rizodo.

It's a turbot risotto.

surely you don't pronounce the "t" in "turbot"??

All of this is fine provided I can still pronounce the s in Paris

and as long as i can pronounce the "v" in PVRIS

Why not?

I'm fine with shez or shayz or Hyacinth Bucket-ing it, but it's a case where it feels wilfully erasing to eradicate the notion that this is a foreign phrase

especially when people with "normal" Australian accents switch to a nasal ocker for those two words, just to make the point that they're not saying nothing posh or fruity, alright?

“chair”

re "forte".. i don't think that's a French expression to begin with anyway? so pronounce it however you want. you can say "it's not my strong point" "mon point fort" but that's an adjective

Like sund4r, I always assumed (on the basis of zero evidence apart from the actual pronunciation used by everyone) that "not my forte" was ported into English via Italian musical notation. It still seems like a reasonable assumption to me.

Football is rife with this sort of thing. So you sometimes get British commentators/pundits pronouncung PSG (Paris St. Germain) as Pay-Ess-Zhay, Milan as Mee-lan (the club is called Milan and not Milano because is was set up by British expatriates) and Racing Club as Raaaa-seeng Cloob.

especially when people with "normal" Australian accents switch to a nasal ocker for those two words, just to make the point that they're not saying nothing posh or fruity, alright?

otm, this is a pervasive and shitty attitude and i hate it

Oxford dictionary says

Origin

Mid 17th century (in forte (sense 2); originally as fort): from French fort (masculine), forte (feminine) ‘strong’, from Latin fortis.

Football is rife with this sort of thing. So you sometimes get British commentators/pundits pronouncung PSG (Paris St. Germain) as Pay-Ess-Zhay, Milan as Mee-lan (the club is called Milan and not Milano because is was set up by British expatriates) and Racing Club as Raaaa-seeng Cloob.

The day (I'm guessing in the late 80s or early 90s) I heard Ruud Gullit pronouncing Ajax "A-Jacks" was the day I realised this stuff is complicated.

xp fair enough LBI - if it's been in English for 300 years I think I'm happy enough that we needn't refer back to the French for "correct" pronunciation, for-tay is correct usage.

woah back up now, is that how Ajax is supposed to be said??? presumably Ruud wouldn't have fucked that up.

unless he was talking about cleaning products, or Greek heroes?

TIL there is another way to pronounce "Ajax". Ajax, Ontario, is definitely "ay-jacks".

It's 'ah-jaks', and not 'jaxx', in Dutch. But I can see Gullit Dunglishing it

Now I'm confused, because those sound the same to me - I had somehow picked upt he idea that it was ay-axe

woah back up now, is that how Ajax is supposed to be said??? presumably Ruud wouldn't have fucked that up.

I think the point is that he'd adjusted the pronunciation so Ian Wright or whoever could understand who he was talking about. It was always pronounced Aye-ax by our more sophisticated broadcasters, i.e., Barry Davies - where did we get that pronunciation from then?

ay-axe is correct

Right, your last post confused me. And Andrew.

my fault

Talking of being unable to pronounce football teams from far off and exotic lands, LOL @ Grennock Morton.