on the French tip: that sunning-yourself chair is actually called a "chaise longue", pronounced like the English word "long". it just means "long chair".
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 24 May 2018 23:56 (five years ago) link
How else do you pronounce it?
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 25 May 2018 00:06 (five years ago) link
Going to admit btw that I had always assumed the "forte" in "spreading butter on toast is my forte" did come from the musical dynamic marking.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 25 May 2018 00:09 (five years ago) link
I always assumed Sobe was asian tea inspired because Sobe = Soba noodles in my mind.
― Yerac, Friday, 25 May 2018 01:24 (five years ago) link
I think the pronunciation of foreign words in the context of a different language comes down to the actual language you are speaking plus local dialect. If you're American speaking English, it's perfectly acceptable to say for-tay and chayz lounge.
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Friday, 25 May 2018 02:50 (five years ago) link
fine but anyone who says “ninety-nine luft ballooooons” is ripe for a boot up the arse
― karl wallogina (Autumn Almanac), Friday, 25 May 2018 02:58 (five years ago) link
(figuratively – i am not physically abusing anyone)
― karl wallogina (Autumn Almanac), Friday, 25 May 2018 02:59 (five years ago) link
Yeah, that's a little different. I consider the other words mentioned to be English words derived from French. You aren't speaking French when you say forte in an English sentence. Luftballons is definitely not an English word, as evidenced by Nina saying "red balloons" in the English version.
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Friday, 25 May 2018 03:07 (five years ago) link
The old department store chain Kresge didn't go out of business in the '60s like I thought, they just changed their name to Kmart.
― Hideous Lump, Friday, 25 May 2018 03:17 (five years ago) link
Didnt know about the forte/fort thing but I usually say something silly like "in my wheelhouse" anyway like the ass I am.
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 25 May 2018 03:48 (five years ago) link
chayz lounge.no
― we used to get our kicks reading surfing MAGAzines (sic), Friday, 25 May 2018 04:39 (five years ago) link
Why not?
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Friday, 25 May 2018 04:40 (five years ago) link
Luftballons is definitely not an English word, as evidenced by Nina saying "red balloons" in the English version.my point is more the english-german-english construction which ignores the actual name of the song and is just lazy, like “the tour de fraaaance”
― karl wallogina (Autumn Almanac), Friday, 25 May 2018 04:46 (five years ago) link
Yeah, it's wrong, but doesn't really raise my hackles. I'm much more sensitive to what I perceive (right or wrong) as "snooty" pronunciations.
xp
Apparently the English substitution of "lounge" dates back some 200 years, so it isn't exactly a modern bastardization.
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Friday, 25 May 2018 04:50 (five years ago) link
then you get into that sociolinguistic bullshit of “well enough people get it wrong so it’s just official now”
― karl wallogina (Autumn Almanac), Friday, 25 May 2018 05:05 (five years ago) link
I mean, that's often how languages work.
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Friday, 25 May 2018 05:26 (five years ago) link
never heard anyone say "chaise lounge" before, must be American English? tbf it's not something I hear said very often.
― Colonel Poo, Friday, 25 May 2018 06:59 (five years ago) link
The one that always got on my tits was once one Hell's Kitchen I heard them refer to a turbo rizodo.
It's a turbot risotto.
― Bimlo Horsewagon became Wheelbarrow Horseflesh (aldo), Friday, 25 May 2018 07:20 (five years ago) link
surely you don't pronounce the "t" in "turbot"??
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Friday, 25 May 2018 07:38 (five years ago) link
All of this is fine provided I can still pronounce the s in Paris
― Andrew Farrell, Friday, 25 May 2018 07:39 (five years ago) link
and as long as i can pronounce the "v" in PVRIS
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Friday, 25 May 2018 07:45 (five years ago) link
Why not?I'm fine with shez or shayz or Hyacinth Bucket-ing it, but it's a case where it feels wilfully erasing to eradicate the notion that this is a foreign phraseespecially when people with "normal" Australian accents switch to a nasal ocker for those two words, just to make the point that they're not saying nothing posh or fruity, alright?
― we used to get our kicks reading surfing MAGAzines (sic), Friday, 25 May 2018 08:32 (five years ago) link
“chair”
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 25 May 2018 08:35 (five years ago) link
re "forte".. i don't think that's a French expression to begin with anyway? so pronounce it however you want. you can say "it's not my strong point" "mon point fort" but that's an adjective
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Friday, 25 May 2018 08:47 (five years ago) link
Like sund4r, I always assumed (on the basis of zero evidence apart from the actual pronunciation used by everyone) that "not my forte" was ported into English via Italian musical notation. It still seems like a reasonable assumption to me.
― Tim, Friday, 25 May 2018 08:58 (five years ago) link
Football is rife with this sort of thing. So you sometimes get British commentators/pundits pronouncung PSG (Paris St. Germain) as Pay-Ess-Zhay, Milan as Mee-lan (the club is called Milan and not Milano because is was set up by British expatriates) and Racing Club as Raaaa-seeng Cloob.
― Poisoned by Johan's pea soup. (Tom D.), Friday, 25 May 2018 09:04 (five years ago) link
especially when people with "normal" Australian accents switch to a nasal ocker for those two words, just to make the point that they're not saying nothing posh or fruity, alright?otm, this is a pervasive and shitty attitude and i hate it
― karl wallogina (Autumn Almanac), Friday, 25 May 2018 09:05 (five years ago) link
Oxford dictionary says
OriginMid 17th century (in forte (sense 2); originally as fort): from French fort (masculine), forte (feminine) ‘strong’, from Latin fortis.
Mid 17th century (in forte (sense 2); originally as fort): from French fort (masculine), forte (feminine) ‘strong’, from Latin fortis.
― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Friday, 25 May 2018 09:05 (five years ago) link
The day (I'm guessing in the late 80s or early 90s) I heard Ruud Gullit pronouncing Ajax "A-Jacks" was the day I realised this stuff is complicated.
― Tim, Friday, 25 May 2018 09:09 (five years ago) link
xp fair enough LBI - if it's been in English for 300 years I think I'm happy enough that we needn't refer back to the French for "correct" pronunciation, for-tay is correct usage.
― Tim, Friday, 25 May 2018 09:10 (five years ago) link
woah back up now, is that how Ajax is supposed to be said??? presumably Ruud wouldn't have fucked that up.
― Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 25 May 2018 11:09 (five years ago) link
unless he was talking about cleaning products, or Greek heroes?
― Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 25 May 2018 11:10 (five years ago) link
TIL there is another way to pronounce "Ajax". Ajax, Ontario, is definitely "ay-jacks".
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 25 May 2018 11:17 (five years ago) link
It's 'ah-jaks', and not 'jaxx', in Dutch. But I can see Gullit Dunglishing it
― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Friday, 25 May 2018 11:54 (five years ago) link
Now I'm confused, because those sound the same to me - I had somehow picked upt he idea that it was ay-axe
― Andrew Farrell, Friday, 25 May 2018 12:00 (five years ago) link
I think the point is that he'd adjusted the pronunciation so Ian Wright or whoever could understand who he was talking about. It was always pronounced Aye-ax by our more sophisticated broadcasters, i.e., Barry Davies - where did we get that pronunciation from then?
― Poisoned by Johan's pea soup. (Tom D.), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:04 (five years ago) link
ay-axe is correct
― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:11 (five years ago) link
Right, your last post confused me. And Andrew.
― Poisoned by Johan's pea soup. (Tom D.), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:13 (five years ago) link
my fault
― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:13 (five years ago) link
Talking of being unable to pronounce football teams from far off and exotic lands, LOL @ Grennock Morton.
― Poisoned by Johan's pea soup. (Tom D.), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:14 (five years ago) link
... and High-bernians.
― Poisoned by Johan's pea soup. (Tom D.), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:16 (five years ago) link
(I once discussed Gullit's pronunciation with a Dutch colleague, who assured me that he was in fact not Dunglishing (which was, and still is, my guess) but in fact saying Ajax the way Surinamese people say Ajax.)
― Tim, Friday, 25 May 2018 12:22 (five years ago) link
MW10's usage note, to me, does a good job describing the situation with "forte" without coming down on a side.
In forte we have a word derived from French that in its "strong point" sense has no entirely satisfactory pronunciation. Usage writers have denigrated \ˈfȯr-ˌtā\ and \ˈfȯr-tē\ because they reflect the influence of the Italian-derived 2forte. Their recommended pronunciation \ˈfȯrt\, however, does not exactly reflect French either: the French would write the word le fort and would pronounce it more similar to English for. So you can take your choice, knowing that someone somewhere will dislike whichever variant you choose. All are standard, however. In British English \ˈfȯ-ˌtā\ and \ˈfȯt\ predominate; \ˈfȯr-ˌtā\ and \fȯr-ˈtā\ are probably the most frequent pronunciations in American English.
Bold bit is key. I'm very much not a prescriptivist, but in my writing and editing work I try to know the audience and anticipate how they'll react to things. I often have to write things that are way stuffier than I'd like, either because of house style or a tight-assed client.
― and she could see an earmuff factory (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:34 (five years ago) link
I have never heard a British person (or as far as I recall anyone) saying "that's not my \ˈfȯt\", for whatever that's worth.
― Tim, Friday, 25 May 2018 12:38 (five years ago) link
I've only heard it that way from insufferable pedants (usually discussing this very topic), but unfortunately I don't live a pedant-free lifestyle
― and she could see an earmuff factory (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:45 (five years ago) link
does single syllable 'fort' sound too close to 'fault' anyway?& I think I have only ever heard it pronounced forté
― Stevolende, Friday, 25 May 2018 12:47 (five years ago) link
― Tim, Friday, May 25, 2018 2:22 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Nah, Surinamese people say Ay-axe the way Dutch people say it, too.
― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:50 (five years ago) link
especially when people with "normal" Australian accents switch to a nasal ocker for those two words, just to make the point that they're not saying nothing posh or fruity, alright?
otm, this is a pervasive and shitty attitude and i hate it
Hmmmm, I may be completely mistaken, but in the US it's written and pronounced "lounge" as a matter of course. That version is so embedded in our vocabulary, I don't think most people here even consider the French spelling/pronunciation. For example, you only see it spelled "lounge" in furniture stores here. I don't think I've even ever heard it pronounced otherwise here. Not sure it's reflective of any current attitude.
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:55 (five years ago) link
Yeah I had half an idea he was talking arse. But (a) I'm not about to start correcting Dutches on their pronunciation and (b) it's always complicated innit?
It's true I am very used to hearing British people whine "it's not my fault", perhaps I'm getting mixed up.
― Tim, Friday, 25 May 2018 12:57 (five years ago) link
The final T is always pronounced in UK English. I think UK English tends to anglicise adopted French words more than US English(?) This is purely based on some US colleagues who say things such as "naiveté", whereas here (UK) we'd just say "naivety".
― mahb, Friday, 25 May 2018 13:45 (five years ago) link