All of this is fine provided I can still pronounce the s in Paris
― Andrew Farrell, Friday, 25 May 2018 07:39 (five years ago) link
and as long as i can pronounce the "v" in PVRIS
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Friday, 25 May 2018 07:45 (five years ago) link
Why not?I'm fine with shez or shayz or Hyacinth Bucket-ing it, but it's a case where it feels wilfully erasing to eradicate the notion that this is a foreign phraseespecially when people with "normal" Australian accents switch to a nasal ocker for those two words, just to make the point that they're not saying nothing posh or fruity, alright?
― we used to get our kicks reading surfing MAGAzines (sic), Friday, 25 May 2018 08:32 (five years ago) link
“chair”
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 25 May 2018 08:35 (five years ago) link
re "forte".. i don't think that's a French expression to begin with anyway? so pronounce it however you want. you can say "it's not my strong point" "mon point fort" but that's an adjective
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Friday, 25 May 2018 08:47 (five years ago) link
Like sund4r, I always assumed (on the basis of zero evidence apart from the actual pronunciation used by everyone) that "not my forte" was ported into English via Italian musical notation. It still seems like a reasonable assumption to me.
― Tim, Friday, 25 May 2018 08:58 (five years ago) link
Football is rife with this sort of thing. So you sometimes get British commentators/pundits pronouncung PSG (Paris St. Germain) as Pay-Ess-Zhay, Milan as Mee-lan (the club is called Milan and not Milano because is was set up by British expatriates) and Racing Club as Raaaa-seeng Cloob.
― Poisoned by Johan's pea soup. (Tom D.), Friday, 25 May 2018 09:04 (five years ago) link
especially when people with "normal" Australian accents switch to a nasal ocker for those two words, just to make the point that they're not saying nothing posh or fruity, alright?otm, this is a pervasive and shitty attitude and i hate it
― karl wallogina (Autumn Almanac), Friday, 25 May 2018 09:05 (five years ago) link
Oxford dictionary says
OriginMid 17th century (in forte (sense 2); originally as fort): from French fort (masculine), forte (feminine) ‘strong’, from Latin fortis.
Mid 17th century (in forte (sense 2); originally as fort): from French fort (masculine), forte (feminine) ‘strong’, from Latin fortis.
― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Friday, 25 May 2018 09:05 (five years ago) link
The day (I'm guessing in the late 80s or early 90s) I heard Ruud Gullit pronouncing Ajax "A-Jacks" was the day I realised this stuff is complicated.
― Tim, Friday, 25 May 2018 09:09 (five years ago) link
xp fair enough LBI - if it's been in English for 300 years I think I'm happy enough that we needn't refer back to the French for "correct" pronunciation, for-tay is correct usage.
― Tim, Friday, 25 May 2018 09:10 (five years ago) link
woah back up now, is that how Ajax is supposed to be said??? presumably Ruud wouldn't have fucked that up.
― Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 25 May 2018 11:09 (five years ago) link
unless he was talking about cleaning products, or Greek heroes?
― Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 25 May 2018 11:10 (five years ago) link
TIL there is another way to pronounce "Ajax". Ajax, Ontario, is definitely "ay-jacks".
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 25 May 2018 11:17 (five years ago) link
It's 'ah-jaks', and not 'jaxx', in Dutch. But I can see Gullit Dunglishing it
― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Friday, 25 May 2018 11:54 (five years ago) link
Now I'm confused, because those sound the same to me - I had somehow picked upt he idea that it was ay-axe
― Andrew Farrell, Friday, 25 May 2018 12:00 (five years ago) link
I think the point is that he'd adjusted the pronunciation so Ian Wright or whoever could understand who he was talking about. It was always pronounced Aye-ax by our more sophisticated broadcasters, i.e., Barry Davies - where did we get that pronunciation from then?
― Poisoned by Johan's pea soup. (Tom D.), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:04 (five years ago) link
ay-axe is correct
― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:11 (five years ago) link
Right, your last post confused me. And Andrew.
― Poisoned by Johan's pea soup. (Tom D.), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:13 (five years ago) link
my fault
― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:13 (five years ago) link
Talking of being unable to pronounce football teams from far off and exotic lands, LOL @ Grennock Morton.
― Poisoned by Johan's pea soup. (Tom D.), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:14 (five years ago) link
... and High-bernians.
― Poisoned by Johan's pea soup. (Tom D.), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:16 (five years ago) link
(I once discussed Gullit's pronunciation with a Dutch colleague, who assured me that he was in fact not Dunglishing (which was, and still is, my guess) but in fact saying Ajax the way Surinamese people say Ajax.)
― Tim, Friday, 25 May 2018 12:22 (five years ago) link
MW10's usage note, to me, does a good job describing the situation with "forte" without coming down on a side.
In forte we have a word derived from French that in its "strong point" sense has no entirely satisfactory pronunciation. Usage writers have denigrated \ˈfȯr-ˌtā\ and \ˈfȯr-tē\ because they reflect the influence of the Italian-derived 2forte. Their recommended pronunciation \ˈfȯrt\, however, does not exactly reflect French either: the French would write the word le fort and would pronounce it more similar to English for. So you can take your choice, knowing that someone somewhere will dislike whichever variant you choose. All are standard, however. In British English \ˈfȯ-ˌtā\ and \ˈfȯt\ predominate; \ˈfȯr-ˌtā\ and \fȯr-ˈtā\ are probably the most frequent pronunciations in American English.
Bold bit is key. I'm very much not a prescriptivist, but in my writing and editing work I try to know the audience and anticipate how they'll react to things. I often have to write things that are way stuffier than I'd like, either because of house style or a tight-assed client.
― and she could see an earmuff factory (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:34 (five years ago) link
I have never heard a British person (or as far as I recall anyone) saying "that's not my \ˈfȯt\", for whatever that's worth.
― Tim, Friday, 25 May 2018 12:38 (five years ago) link
I've only heard it that way from insufferable pedants (usually discussing this very topic), but unfortunately I don't live a pedant-free lifestyle
― and she could see an earmuff factory (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:45 (five years ago) link
does single syllable 'fort' sound too close to 'fault' anyway?& I think I have only ever heard it pronounced forté
― Stevolende, Friday, 25 May 2018 12:47 (five years ago) link
― Tim, Friday, May 25, 2018 2:22 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Nah, Surinamese people say Ay-axe the way Dutch people say it, too.
― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:50 (five years ago) link
especially when people with "normal" Australian accents switch to a nasal ocker for those two words, just to make the point that they're not saying nothing posh or fruity, alright?
otm, this is a pervasive and shitty attitude and i hate it
Hmmmm, I may be completely mistaken, but in the US it's written and pronounced "lounge" as a matter of course. That version is so embedded in our vocabulary, I don't think most people here even consider the French spelling/pronunciation. For example, you only see it spelled "lounge" in furniture stores here. I don't think I've even ever heard it pronounced otherwise here. Not sure it's reflective of any current attitude.
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Friday, 25 May 2018 12:55 (five years ago) link
Yeah I had half an idea he was talking arse. But (a) I'm not about to start correcting Dutches on their pronunciation and (b) it's always complicated innit?
It's true I am very used to hearing British people whine "it's not my fault", perhaps I'm getting mixed up.
― Tim, Friday, 25 May 2018 12:57 (five years ago) link
surely you don't pronounce the "t" in "turbot"??
The final T is always pronounced in UK English. I think UK English tends to anglicise adopted French words more than US English(?) This is purely based on some US colleagues who say things such as "naiveté", whereas here (UK) we'd just say "naivety".
― mahb, Friday, 25 May 2018 13:45 (five years ago) link
See also “garage”
― valorous wokelord (silby), Friday, 25 May 2018 13:47 (five years ago) link
How do you pronounce “charcuterie” in BrE
― valorous wokelord (silby), Friday, 25 May 2018 13:48 (five years ago) link
I get IR about lazy American pronunciation of French words and phrases (no-tur daym!) but my own French pronunciation is perfectly atrocious so who's the real monster here, basically.
― I really like the acting, dialogue and especially the scenes (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 May 2018 13:50 (five years ago) link
it's only Nee-chee that really does my head. him and Van Go
― A good "sexy time " album (Noodle Vague), Friday, 25 May 2018 13:51 (five years ago) link
charred cuties
― (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ (mh), Friday, 25 May 2018 13:52 (five years ago) link
a student quoted Frederik Nicci in his final paper this semester
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 25 May 2018 13:53 (five years ago) link
The etymology on dictionary.com says turbot was adopted into English in the 13th century, so Americans presumably just pronounce it the French way to be fancy or something
― Colonel Poo, Friday, 25 May 2018 13:54 (five years ago) link
nicci mane
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Friday, 25 May 2018 13:55 (five years ago) link
mahb i suspect you're righti'm trying to think of other examples. the only one i can gin up is "duvet" except British people actually DO say "duvay" i thinkah just remembered: "FILLET"
Christina Nicci
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 25 May 2018 13:55 (five years ago) link
xp to self also dictionary.com, an American site, doesn't have the turbo pronunciation
― Colonel Poo, Friday, 25 May 2018 13:56 (five years ago) link
ruhNAYsance
― and she could see an earmuff factory (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 25 May 2018 13:57 (five years ago) link
air-uh-poss-tuhl
― I really like the acting, dialogue and especially the scenes (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 May 2018 13:58 (five years ago) link
Don Jewan
― and she could see an earmuff factory (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 25 May 2018 13:59 (five years ago) link
The final T is always pronounced in UK English
cachet, crochet, buffet
― ogmor, Friday, 25 May 2018 14:00 (five years ago) link
fillet is a weird one. it's even a different spelling.
― Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 25 May 2018 14:01 (five years ago) link
gilet
(unless you say "gillit" like me because you are """funny""")
― chant down basildon (NickB), Friday, 25 May 2018 14:02 (five years ago) link
also bidet
― chant down basildon (NickB), Friday, 25 May 2018 14:03 (five years ago) link
Gerard, Bernard...
― Poisoned by Johan's pea soup. (Tom D.), Friday, 25 May 2018 14:05 (five years ago) link