the day after the deadline: can the union survive brexit and other deep questions

it's a complete clusterfuck, and lots of Blue Labour's take on it is so simplistic and deluded, and quite the opposite of a Matt DC post!

Yeah but that's largely irrelevant given that the UK is outside the Eurozone, I doubt the EU would have cared much either way about UK monetary policy even if public spending had continued to grow, this is all at the door of Osborne and Cameron and I'm 90% certain Brexit wouldn't have happened without them.

(xpost - isn't Blue Labour more likely to take a pro-Brexit position, given that it's all legitimate concerners anyway?)

Best thing you could say about Lexit is it's a hell of a gamble- so no wonder Zarb-Cousin is keen lol

Also yeah I don't think it's a coincidence that most of the voices I trust on the pro-Corbyn Twitter left are women.

Blue Labour tends to steer pro-Europe but with immigration restrictions - the 'have your cake and eat it' model that Cameron tried and failed to win.

Blue Labour want racism but at a cheap gite supranational level

my point about the EU and austerity is that it and its supporters made a terrible job of selling it during the referendum and there are legit reasons for that

Xp to say nothing of various Labour MPs being threatened and abused constantly!

Still, that Momentum, they're the real threat to our democracy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44452529

And thank fuck I'm not on Twitter, it's hard enough work being on ILX.

in fact my legitimate concern is that the EU has not much more to offer the poor and marginalized than centrism does in general

I'm guessing it'll take a shock in Europe, maybe Italy maybe elsewhere, to force the EU to get its own house in order but I don't think most Leave voters were really taking Greece or Spain into account when they voted.

The approach should have been 'neither Leave nor the status quo but working for sunlit uplands within the EU' but the entire tenor of British politics for the six or seven years before the referendum made it impossible for anyone to make that case, irrespective of what the EU itself was doing.

increasingly seems to me that there are lot of issues inc brexit which have similar generational splits with gen xers complaining about the dangerously antagonistic tone of millennial leftists, and millennial leftists rolling their eyes at gen x pretensions to sensible, broad-minded debate

selling EU imposed austerity: "don't worry about your living standards dropping to early 20th century standards, welfare state shrinkage, homelessness and disabled bodies piling up, just look at the respectable gdp per capita ranking and record low unemployment figures for that feelgood factor!"

I guess the referendum would have only been held under a tory government and was mainly done to quieten down elements of that party. But going ahead and voting for the possibility of a Lexit under the current government seems self-defeating. Would think you'd want there to be a comfortably established Leftist government before you could begin to have things set up for that.

It's usually 40-somethings and older circling the wagons because the younger generation doesn't think that their progressive utopia was all that great in the first place. And yeah a lot of them will make that point clumsily because - gasp - they're kids and some of the figureheads know how to whip that up to their own advantage.

Probably the biggest danger for Corbyn is that he loses or disillusions a lot of millennial Remain voters (potentially a big chunk of Labour voters even in Leave constituencies). That bloc has held up reasonably well for now but it would be less likely to survive Labour taking a less equivocal Brexit position. The Labour leadership understand that, whether some of their backbenchers do is another question entirely (or maybe they understand it perfectly well and hope it'll undermine him).

a lot of them will make that point clumsily because - gasp - they're kids and some of the figureheads know how to whip that up to their own advantage.

some might uncharitably see this as a perfect example of patronising gen x faux-even-handedness

Q. How's Brexit going?

A. A fried-breakfast-based think tank is currently defending themselves against the charge that they want to carry out drone strikes on West Belfast.

— Will Davies (@davies_will) June 13, 2018

From what I understand (and I only follow ppl that follow MZC) that tweet was purely aimed at the fbpe lot (who @ Corbyn all the time on Brexit, including one occasion where Corbyn tweeted about Guatemala, such a pathetic sight).

MZC's tone was wrong, but those ppl are each other's throats. I think their amplification has been mostly good, the left generally need that bit of tabloidy energy and Corbyn/lab leadership keep their distance.

Yeah to be honest I should know better after years of watching barristers, MPs, evolutionary biologists etc being unbelievably shit at the internet.

From what I understand (and I only follow ppl that follow MZC) that tweet was purely aimed at the fbpe lot (who @ Corbyn all the time on Brexit, including one occasion where Corbyn tweeted about Guatemala, such a pathetic sight).

MZC's tone was wrong, but those ppl are each other's throats

FWIW I don't think it really helps anyone to have Brexit used as a proxy war between rival Labour factions, which if you look at, say, Chuka's shifting position on the issue over the last two years is pretty much what's happening.

Course it doesn't help but when have principles ever interfered with the wing whose motto is "power first, policies later"?

I'm not even being reductive, that is the Blue Labour mission statement

Inspirational stuff.

In the interests of balance Polly Toynbee would like to point out that under Tony Blair every 5 year-old in the country was £2.36 a year better off in real terms

but I don't think most Leave voters were really taking Greece or Spain into account when they voted.

No, but they certainly enjoyed using half-arsed arguments as cover for it. The amount of people who couldn’t have told you a thing about Irish politics banging on about the troika/Lisbon/Nice was ludicrous.

MZC usually makes relatively valid points but in an incredibly cunty way. I believe he’s mentioned one of his parents is an EU immigrant, so is not arguing from the position of someone entirely unaffected.

People focusing their efforts on attacking the opposition rather than the government continue to be suss at best.

that's the Labour Party which voted against the government, and the rebels that voted with it https://t.co/N2WtrU5F4n

— jamie k (@jkbloodtreasure) June 12, 2018

rip charlie mullins

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44465639

I dunno if this is the right place but hey..

Wetherspoon to stop selling champagne ahead of Brexit

Pub chain JD Wetherspoon has said it will replace champagne with sparkling wines from the UK from next month.

The company's founder, Tim Martin, who campaigned for Brexit, said it was part of a transition away from products made in the European Union.

Under the plan, British wheat beer and alcohol-free beer will replace the current beers brewed in Germany.

Mr Martin said the new drinks would be cheaper than the European Union products that they are replacing.

He said: "There will be an inevitable transfer of trade post-Brexit to countries outside the EU, which will reduce prices in shops and pubs.

"The products we are now introducing are at lower prices than the EU products they are replacing."

The move was part of a review all products over the next six to 24 months, he said, adding: "We intend to honour existing contracts with EU suppliers, some of which have several years to run.

"However, we are starting to make the transition to non-EU trade now."

Wetherspoon said its new wheat beers brewed in the UK will include Blue Moon Belgian White, Thornbridge Versa Weisse Beer and SA Brains Atlantic White.

um, wahat?

if its cheaper why didn't they do this already

Anyone who thinks that Blue Moon is an adequate replacement for Belgian beer is an idiot and deserves to go bankrupt.

All that, sure. It was more the 'cultural appropriation' of Weisse beer, and Belgian White, and so on..

Thornbridge are really good

but that is idiocy haha

Anyone opposed to Brexit (and all little Englander nonsense) should probably never drink in a Spoons. I never have and never will.

Wetherspoons cunt is totally deranged

the thought of drinking champagne in a wetherspoons has given me crippling depression

So despite Corbyn whipping Labour to vote against the Tories again and again yesterday the FBPE crowd are still going after Corbyn instead of the Tory government. Can we stop pretending FBPE has anything to do with stopping Brexit and admit it's about stopping Corbyn?

— Ed Poole (@edwardpoole1975) June 13, 2018

^ ton of ppl wasting their breath. Ok, there is a way to go but May's path is for a soft brexit. No 2nd ref. It's about the extent of the damage to the economy ahead of the next general election.

Not to pile on or anything in the morning after some colourful exchanges here but I saw a point someone make a couple of days ago, of a possibility - should the referendum result be turned back by a 2nd ref (and that is only 52% the other way), or by any means necessary - of an upturn in fascist-type attacks, where a lot of migrant communities would suffer.

I don't think there's a possibility, I think that's definitely going to happen - in a reversion, in a soft Brexit once they figure out that they haven't turned the tides back, and even more so in a hard Brexit once they feel empowered by what they got. But these aren't the wages of Brexit, they're what was already happening, what made Brexit possible in the first place. It's a fight that will have to happen no matter what - though obviously having the ECJ about would be handy.

Oh also where are my manners: thank you very much for your kind words, Jed.

I'd be interested to see the latest demographics of Wetherspoons staff in terms of how many come from other EU countries. I guess if he can't get the staff he'll close several branches down which is a VERY British thing to rn.

oh my fuck

Amazing range of looks from the PM pic.twitter.com/0lF7OurwBT

— Esther Webber (@estwebber) June 13, 2018

maybot going 'turn back you poxy fule'

Almost makes me feel sorry for May, Johnson's smug "yup, that was me" grin is so despicable.

Fair zinger from Corbz and all.

turn back you brexit fule morelikeamirite?

yeah i felt a bit bad for her there

how about now?

I am completely incapable of feeling bad for May tbh

oh it passed

god boris is such a cunt

may’s expressions there are fucking priceless tho

I might feel a twinge of pity if May was slowly lowered feet first into boiling molten lead, but it would soon pass.

for the molten lead lol